Best all-around seasons of all time
Posted by Andy on September 20, 2007
Since I picked on Joe Morgan a bit in my last post, I thought I'd mention that I think he had two of the greatest all-around seasons in baseball history.
Here is the complete list of all seasons where a player had at least 90 RBI, 100 BB, 60 SB, and 10 HR:
Cnt Player Year SB RBI BB HR Age Tm Lg G PA AB R H 2B 3B IBB SO HBP SH SF GDP CS BA OBP SLG OPS Positions +----+-----------------+----+---+---+---+--+---+---+--+---+---+---+---+---+--+--+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+-----+-----+-----+-----+---------+ 1 Joe Morgan 1976 60 111 114 27 32 CIN NL 141 599 472 113 151 30 5 8 41 1 0 12 2 9 .320 .444 .576 1.020 *4 2 Joe Morgan 1975 67 94 132 17 31 CIN NL 146 639 498 107 163 27 6 3 52 3 0 6 3 10 .327 .466 .508 .974 *4
That's it, folks. Fittingly, Morgan was MVP both years, and the Big Red Machine won the World Series both years as well.
What's your opinion on the best all-around seasons of all time? Post it below in the comments.
September 20th, 2007 at 8:10 am
Rickey Henderson in '90 is pretty comparable.
September 20th, 2007 at 8:22 am
Thats a rather arbitrary set of statistics with parameters set to match your player's skills. You can do that with almost any decent player that has a strong individual skill.
September 20th, 2007 at 8:27 am
I was just doing a top 50 offensive seasons blog posting, so I kind of had started on this already without knowing. Some of these are on my top 50, some aren't (I tried to factor in SB more here than on my original list):
Bonds 1990-93, 1996-98.
Bagwell '98 & '99.
Chipper Jones '99.
Jeter '99.
Darryl Strawberry '88.
Vlad Guerrero '02.
Barry Larkin '96.
Henderson again in '85.
Morgan again in '73, '74.
Eric Davis '87.
Raines '87.
Bobby Abreu '04.
Robby Alomar '93.
September 20th, 2007 at 8:31 am
Oscar--I don't really agree. If you slightly changed your statement--that many players without significant stolen base totals have had fantastic seasons--I'd agree. But stolen bases are real and valuable, and Morgan was both very fast and an excellent overall baserunner. That shouldn't be simply neglected in consideration.
September 20th, 2007 at 8:35 am
vonhayes--so in 75 Morgan had an OPS+ of 169 and in 76 he had 187...pretty damn staggering numbers. How many of the seasons on your list can boast numbers in that range?
Check out this link for players who had an OPS+ of 169 or better and at least 30 SB. Twenty-one different players have done it, a total of 47 times. Cobb did it 11 times!!!
Rickey Henderson in 1990 is on that list too.
September 20th, 2007 at 8:39 am
All the guys I listed had OPS+ of 150. Bonds's great seasons were in the 165-200 range. I think the next best were Chipper and Bagwell who were in the 170's.
I also saw a lot of extraordinary Cobb, Tris Speaker and Eddie Collins seasons, but I have a pretty bad bias against the pre-integration era.
P.S. I don't have a PI account so a lot of my lists are kind of makeshift.
September 20th, 2007 at 8:45 am
I don't understand bias again pre-integration. The lack of integration is simply historical fact, and it is not the fault of MLB players that there wasn't integration. There are still players in MLB who greatly outperformed most others. Why not do what others have done, and also look at Negro League performances and make note of the best seasons there?
And also, based on the interesting comments you have made, I cannot believe that you are not a PI subscriber...you should really think about signing up. It's a great use of some entertainment dollars. (And as a disclaimer I should mention that I am just a guest blogger here--I'm not a part owner and I don't get paid.)
September 20th, 2007 at 9:08 am
Andy my points are:
1) Why did you include RBIs in you list.
Does it show a different skill not listed?
2)100-60-10 are not equivalent bench marks for those stats.
There have been 483-100 walk seasons, 113-60 SB seasons,
8470-10 HR seasons 2481-90 RBI seasons.
The numbers were clearly chosen to match Morgans skills.
107 RBI - 32 SB - 87 BB - 30 HR have each been accomplished
around 1000 times individually, but only 3 times combined
(Bonds '90, '96 and. Abreu 2001.
If you want to include BA instead of RBI- a .324 BA is the equivalent of the above stats.
No one has ever hit .324 with 87 BB, 30 HR and 32 SB.
September 20th, 2007 at 9:13 am
Fair enough--certainly my criteria were chosen to isolate Morgan's seasons--not because I think those criteria are what comprise a great season, but because I wanted to highlight what Morgan achieved those years that nobody else has achieved. But I like your way of thinking too, which is one of the reasons I asked people to post their opinions!
September 20th, 2007 at 9:31 am
I agree with everything you said there, Andy. I never said it was a rational bias. It's definitely knee-jerk, sort of a childish backlash to what some people are saying about MY generation as far as steroid taint. "Well if you discount my favorite players and era as being tainted, I will discount yours."
It's something I have to "work on" and accept 🙂 In fact, when I do this top 50 offensive seasons series on my blog, I'll be including 5 pre-integration seasons in the top 10.
September 20th, 2007 at 9:39 am
IMO, Chuck Klein is an often overlooked great, perhaps because he had a pretty short peak. But check out his 1930 season:
.386/.436/.687; 250 H, 107 XBH, 59 2B, 40 HR, 158 R, 170 RBI, 44!! OF assists, 10 DPs
His all-time ranks per category:
Hits: #6
Total Bases: #4
X-Base Hits: #3
2B: #7
RBI: #8
Runs: #18
OF Assists: #1
Rare 150R/150RBI club
I know 1930 was an offensive explosion in mlb (hence his OPS+ "only" 159) but that is an impressive season - especially considering his team lost 102!! games. He doesn't have the speed numbers, but his special year on defense should help his "all around" great season status.
He did have another great year in 1932 (MVP) where he had 100+ XB Hits (only he and Gehrig did this twice), 15 3B and 20 SB.
September 20th, 2007 at 9:50 am
I'm amazed that one can even talk about best seasons ever without mentioning The Babe. If you look at the list of top OPS+ seasons, he and Bonds own that list, between them. Yes, stolen bases have value, especially if the success rate is high, but it takes an awful lot of them to make up for 200+ points of SLG.
September 20th, 2007 at 9:55 am
Yeah he's great. His 1933 is #63 on my offensive seasons list. It'd probably be more in the 130's or so, but for the purposes of the list I'm only including one season per hitter.
September 20th, 2007 at 9:59 am
Klein's numbers were partly a mirage from his ball park.
AMusingFool- I don't think the discussion here is best seasons ever, its about season where players demonstrated a wide variety of skills. That said, Ruths pitching and triples totals should certainly prevent him from being removed from the conversation.
September 20th, 2007 at 10:00 am
Yeah...let's not forget Ruth was quite a good baserunner.
Chuck Klein's 44 outfield assists in 1930 is quite impressive, but of course the Phillies were horrible that year and must have had opposition baserunners flying around everywhere. You could throw the ball blindfolded and probably nab a runner here and there.
September 20th, 2007 at 10:02 am
Andy - Its the same ball park effect.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Chuck_Klein
"Playing in the shallow right field of the Baker Bowl, where he sometimes turned singles into outs at first base, Klein still holds the record for most assists by an outfielder -- 44 in 1930."
September 20th, 2007 at 10:03 am
I was talking about Klein, not Ruth. Ruth is obviously in the top 2.
September 20th, 2007 at 10:12 am
I'd love to know how many of Klein's POs that year were at first base.
Larry Walker was pretty good at that (nailing guys at first base.) That was always amazing to see.
September 20th, 2007 at 10:21 am
In 1930,1932 and 1933 Klein played all his games in the baker Bowl right field.
His assist totals were 44, 29 and 21.
In 1931 he played 90 games in left, 17 in center and 43 in right.
He had 13 assists.
September 20th, 2007 at 2:36 pm
In 1909, Ty Cobb led baseball in BA (.377), OBP (.431), SLG (.517), OPS, OPS+ (194), R (116), H (216), TB (296), HR (9), RBI (107), and SB (76).
That's hard to beat.
September 20th, 2007 at 2:44 pm
Indeed. Although it's obvious, I still find it hard to internalize that 9 HR led the league.
September 20th, 2007 at 3:53 pm
While the Reds are my favorite team and Morgan one of the best 2B to ever play the game and taking into account position adjustments I still don't think I can consider seasons like his instead of seasons like one of the 9 seasons a player has produced over 200 Run Created
Ruth's 1921 season? Gehrig's 1927 season? Bonds 2001 season? Foxx's 1932 season? or Hornsby's 1922 season.
A quick comparison looking at BP's Batting Runs (BRAA)
BRAA
137 Bonds 2001
107 Ruth 1921
102 Gehrig 1927
89 Foxx 1932
86 Hornsby 1922
75 Morgan 1976
71 Morgan 1975
lets adjust that for position
RARP
145.4 Bonds
120.6 Ruth
118.1 Hornsby
115.6 Gehrig
100.7 Foxx
96.8 Morgan 1976
92.1 Morgan 1975
this is by no means a complete list I just picked the first instance of each player who generated over 200 RC in a season.
September 21st, 2007 at 7:08 am
re: Cobb, 1909. Definitely amazing. I find myself wondering, though, how many of those nine homers were of the inside-the-park variety. In a similar vein, re: Babe's triples... Don't forget that triples were a power stat back then, not a speed one.
September 22nd, 2007 at 12:10 am
My posting here is very late, and I wonder if anyone will read this at all.
As part of the quest many of us share to try to determine who the best player in history is, I came up with a simple formula. Similar to the idea behind OPS+, the idea here is to judge a player's season performance along side players of the same year in the same league. My last name being BROWN, I call this the Brown Index.
My formula considers what place in a particular season a player finishes in BA, R, TB, RBI, BB and SB. Which players in which seasons dominated these categories the most? By finishing first in a category, the player receives 10 points; by finishing third, the player receives 8 points; by finishing tenth, the player receives 1 point; by finishing tied for first, the player receives 9.5 points.
I'll use Mantle's 1957 season as an example: 2nd in BA (9 points), 1st in R (10 points), 2nd in TB (9 points), 6th in RBIs (5 points), 1st in BB (10 points), 4th in SB (7 points), for a total of 50 points.
Over the past few years I've compiled all AL and NL seasons by hand, so I may have made some errors, but as far as I can tell, 50 or more points in the Brown Index has only happened about 16 times.
So, who had the best all-around season of all time?
1915 Cobb 10, 10, 10, 8, 8, 10 = 56
1910 Magee 10, 10, 10, 10, 8, 7 = 55
1963 Aaron 8, 10, 10, 10, 8, 9 = 55
1909 Cobb 10, 10, 10, 10, 3.5, 10 = 53.5
1910 Cobb 9, 10, 9, 9, 7, 9 = 53
1956 Mantle 10, 10, 10, 10, 9, 4 = 53
1932 Klein 8, 10, 10, 9, 5.5, 10 = 52.5
1904 Wagner 10, 8.5, 10, 7, 6.5, 10 = 52
1908 Wagner = 50
1911 Cobb = 50
1921 Ruth = 50
1933 Klein = 50
1942 Williams = 50
1947 Williams = 50
1957 Mantle = 50
1958 Mays = 50
September 22nd, 2007 at 6:24 am
Interesting. I like your system.
September 22nd, 2007 at 5:36 pm
For some reason these two amazing season always get left out of the discussion all the time, Frank Thomas MVP year of 1994 and Ken Griffey that same season, lets take a look
Griffey .323, .674 slg, 40 hrs, 90 rbi, 94 runs
Thomas .353, .729 slg, 38 hrs, 101 rbi, 106 runs
Pretty good on first glance, then you remember they both got shorted out of two months because of the strike. They played in 111 and 113 games respectively. Now look at their numbers projected out over the whole season:
Griffey .323, .674 slg, 58 hrs, 131 rbi, 137 runs
Thomas .353, .729 slg, 54 hrs, 145 rbi, 152 runs
that's like 2 guys having better seasons offensive seasons in the same year than a rod is this year.
the only comproble seasons in recent history in terms of all-around offensive output with those power numbers and average are;
Bonds '01, Sosa '98 and '01, and A-rod this year
just throwin' it out there
September 23rd, 2007 at 12:34 pm
Using my rating system, here are the most dominant offensive seasons since 1987.
2000 Helton 10, 9, 10, 10, 6.5, 0 = 45.5
1993 Bonds 7, 9, 10, 10, 9, 0 = 45
1994 Bagwell 9, 10, 10, 10, 6, 0 = 45
1994 Thomas 8, 10, 8, 7.5, 10, 0 = 43.5
1995 E Martinez 10, 9.5, 8, 7, 9, 0 = 43.5
2005 A Rodriguez 9, 10, 9, 7, 8, 0 = 43
2001 Sosa 3, 10, 10, 10, 9, 0 = 42
1992 F Thomas 8, 9, 7, 8, 9.5, 0 =41.5
1990 R Henderson 9, 10, 5, 0, 7, 10 = 41
2003 Helton 9, 9, 9, 5, 8.5, 0 = 40.5
2005 Pujols 9, 10, 9, 8.5, 5, 0 = 40.5
September 23rd, 2007 at 8:30 pm
Re: 1994
For some reason, I had purposely been leaving those seasons out because they were shortened, but if you look closely, Thomas actually did have 500 plate appearances that year.
September 24th, 2007 at 6:37 pm
that's true, but if you look at all of Thomas' seasons (besides '94) between 1991 and 2000, he averaged about 540 at bats. in '94 he only got like 389 or something, if you project his numbers over his average abs from the other seasons, you still come up with like 55 hrs and 140 rbi. Either way, it's pretty difficult to agnore his and griffey's shortened season on a list of the top offensive seasons since '87.
March 19th, 2008 at 7:06 pm
Interesting discussion. The term 'All-around' needs to be defined. I am guessing it should encompass the measures of all the basic talents of the game -
1) Getting on base (OBP),
2) Hitting for power (SLG),
3) Situational hitting (RISP/ROB, Late&Close) - This is harder to quantify,
4) Running the bases (SB, CS, GIDP, OOB (outs on basepaths), XBA (extra bases advanced), - which can be base/out extensions to OBP & SLG
5) Fielding - again hard to quantify, partly because the state of fielding stats are still mostly in baseball's stone age, and partly because it's harder to parse and assign responsibility for unsuccessful events.
Obviously Pitchers have to be rated separately.