18 Responses to “One Time All-Stars, Most Seasons Without 20 Wins Or Saves”

1. Cap Says:
   April 20th, 2011 at 1:50 pm

   I love this interesting stuff. I think what would interesting also is who made the most all-star games while never, in their career, reaching 20 saves or 20 wins.

2. DavidRF Says:
   April 20th, 2011 at 2:11 pm

   Just to pedantically clarify. I assume you mean "at least one All-Star" game. Nolan Ryan is an eight-time all-star.

   I'm only clarifying being "one-time All-Stars" is an interesting group of players which people like to discuss from time to time.

3. Steve Lombardi Says:
   April 20th, 2011 at 2:26 pm

   Yup, in this case, "one-time" means "at least once."

4. BSK Says:
   April 20th, 2011 at 2:37 pm

   And don't you mean most individual seasons without 20 wins? The title reads as if it is never having 20 wins.

5. Dan Port Says:
   April 20th, 2011 at 3:57 pm

   Um... what? Ryan won 20 in 1973 and 1974, Maddux won 20 in 1992 and 1993, etc.

6. DavidRF Says:
   April 20th, 2011 at 4:15 pm

   @5
   Yeah, its a bit confusing. Ryan pitched 27 seasons and won 20 twice. So he has 25 sub-20-W seasons.

7. rico petrocelli Says:
   April 20th, 2011 at 6:50 pm

   wakefield

8. TapDancingTeddy Says:
   April 20th, 2011 at 6:59 pm

   Some really great pitchers on that list (Nolan Ryan, Steve Carlton, Pedro Martinez and Roger Clemens) some not so much (Mike Morgan, Woodie Fryman) and some one-hit wonders (Jim Lonborg, Scott Erickson).

9. PhilsPhan Says:
   April 20th, 2011 at 8:42 pm

   Jamie Moyer could challenge Nolan Ryan for the top spot if he comes back from surgery successfully

10. Neil L. Says:
    April 20th, 2011 at 9:05 pm

    A strange list that requires some thought to make sense of.

    Trying to distill the list down to its basic "truth", I think the only thing it shows is the unreliability of wins as a measure of pitching performance.

    To be high on this list one requires longevity. That will not happen without being effective in the starting rotation for a long time.

    As a sidebar, how could Nuxie have started his career at 15?

    And McCormick and Claude Osteen at 17 years old. That's not going to happen again any time soon.

11. John Autin Says:
    April 20th, 2011 at 9:48 pm

    Unless I've misunderstood something in the criteria, Jesse Orosco should be on the list, along with some other relievers.
    Orosco was a 2-time All-Star (1983-84), and in 22 of his 24 seasons he did not have 20 wins or saves.

    Checking the underlying list, I think I might have found the problem. The first search (which was saved and used as the basis for the second) found everyone who ever made an All-Star team and sorted them by most wins. But I think that a saved search is limited to 200 players.

    Mike Stanton (the lefty reliever) is another who should be on the list -- All-Star in 2001 (thank you, Joe Torre!), did not reach 20 saves or wins in 18 of his 19 seasons.

    Also Dan Plesac and perhaps a few others.

12. John Autin Says:
    April 20th, 2011 at 9:56 pm

    Sean's original post about the new search function did say that a saved search is limited to 200 players:
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/10708

13. Steve Lombardi Says:
    April 20th, 2011 at 10:40 pm

    Good catch John - thanks

14. Eric C Says:
    April 20th, 2011 at 10:45 pm

    Neil L -

    Nuxhall debuted at 15 because of World War II... most of the "real" major leaguers were in the service. Also there were some similarities to David Clyde's debut in the '70s - he was a local kid for a team that needed some publicity.

15. Neil L. Says:
    April 20th, 2011 at 11:18 pm

    @14
    WW or no WW, Eric, Joe Nuxhall would have been a high school sophomore. How could you rob the cradle to fill a ML roster? Different era, different standards.

    Tell me America's game was more important than youth exploitation back then.

16. John Autin Says:
    April 21st, 2011 at 12:05 am

    I'll lay 100 to 1 odds that Joe Nuxhall never had a moment's thought that his pitching in the major leagues at age 15 constituted exploitation.

17. breadalbane Says:
    April 21st, 2011 at 2:14 pm

    He probably didn't like to relive the memory too often, though. Coming in to a 13-0 blowout in the top of the ninth, the 15-year-old Nuxhall faced nine batters, giving up 5 walks and 2 hits, and five earned runs. He also only got two outs before being relieved by Jake Eisenhart, who got the last out of the game, which the Reds lost to the Cards 18-0.

    Nuxhall didn't make it back to the bigs for 8 years after that rocky debut.

18. Pete R Says:
    April 22nd, 2011 at 3:24 am

    For what it's worth, a corresponding list for non-Allstars would start with Danny Darwin (21 seasons).