The latest member of the 500 HR club: Hideki Matsui
Posted by Andy on July 21, 2011
I had no idea but Hideki Matsui just hit his 500th career homer, which includes 332 in Japan.
I know there are a handful of Japanese players to top 500 homers in Japan. Does anybody have a complete list of all players to have 500 homers spread across both leagues?
July 21st, 2011 at 4:21 pm
Ichiro has a combined 3,626 hits. That puts him 4 behind Musial...
July 21st, 2011 at 4:35 pm
Two years due to injury I wonder how many more he would have had (Matsui that is)-if Ichiro keeps going at his pace he may get 3000 here
July 21st, 2011 at 4:38 pm
Here's some career stats for selected star Japanese players. Presumably, any 500 HR hitters would be included.
http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/careerb.htm
At a glance, I see the following:
- Sadaharu Oh, 868, 1959-80
- Katsuya Nomura, 657, 1954-80
- Hiromitsu Kadota, 567, 1970-92
- Koji Yamamoto, 536, 1969-86
- Hiromitsu Ochiai, 510, 1979-98
- Isao Harimoto, 504, 1959-81
- Sachio Kinugasa, 504, 1965-87
The website above is the hobby/work of Jim Albright, an American who says he has never been to Japan.
July 21st, 2011 at 4:44 pm
Ach, I knew this topic would rear its Godzillian head!
Instead of arguing my usual point, I'll just salute Matsui-san for his [ahem] milestone 168th career HR in the major leagues.
It's a testament to his staying power that a player who's never exceeded 31 HRs in a season nor cracked his league's top 10, and has averaged 24 HRs per 162 games, has persevered and risen all the way to 54th on the active MLB home run list. Why, he may yet catch Melvin Mora!
July 21st, 2011 at 4:51 pm
JA what's your beef?
July 21st, 2011 at 4:52 pm
A bit peevish, aren't you John?
24 HR average for the back half of a career isn't shabby.
That's probably easily a 300+ HR career (maybe 350+) if Matsui started in the majors 6 or 7 years earlier. Not his fault he got a late start.
July 21st, 2011 at 5:17 pm
He should have been the rookie of the year..
discuss...
July 21st, 2011 at 5:17 pm
I think JA's beef is that the Japanese leagues aren't on par with MLB and thus we should be celebrating Mastui's "milestone" the same we we would salute Crash Davis if he reached a combined minor-league/MLB home run "milestone."
July 21st, 2011 at 5:24 pm
Not a complete list, but here's some combined HR totals for some Americans who had significant careers in Japan. Numbers in parentheses are MLB (first) and JPL (second) totals.
Leron Lee, 1969-87, 314 (31, 283)
George Altman, 1959-75, 306 (101, 205)
Greg Wells, 1981-92, 277 (0, 277)
Daryl Spencer, 1952-72, 257 (152, 105)
Clarence Jones, 1967-77, 248 (2, 246)
Warren Cromartie, 1974-90, 232 (61, 171)
Randy Bass, 1977-88, 211 (9, 202)
Bobby Rose, 1989-2000, 172 (5, 167)
Dave Roberts, 1962-73, 155 (2, 153)
Kind of makes the point John was implying @4.
July 21st, 2011 at 5:26 pm
@9.
I have Daryl Spencer's split backwards. It should be 105 in MLB and 152 in Japan.
July 21st, 2011 at 5:32 pm
Tuffy Rhodes finished his career with 13 in the US and 464 in Japan. Close but no cigar.
July 21st, 2011 at 5:44 pm
Hideki Matsui hit 70 HR in his first three MLB seasons (before getting hurt). 63 other players have hit 65 to 75 HR at ages 29 to 31. Through age 28, the median number of HR hit by that group was 91. Thirteen of them hit at least 150.
Let's throw out Matsui's first season, when it was reported he had trouble adjusting to the number of sinkers thrown in MLB, and take his next two seasons as evidence of his true MLB HR power. He hit 54 HR in those seasons. 79 other players have hit 49 to 59 HR at ages 30 and 31. Through age 28, the median number of HR hit by that group was 116, with 24 of them hitting at least 150.
So, I'll take the average of those two medians, and declare that Matsui would have hit 104 MLB HR through age 28, giving him 272 to date. Of course, if he had played over here the whole time, he probably develops more of a power stroke, since the Japanese-type swing isn't that conducive to hitting lots of HR in American parks. And breaking his wrist in '06 didn't help.
Lots of what-ifs. He was a very fine player, anyway.
July 21st, 2011 at 5:55 pm
[If you're tired of me, skip this comment.]
Sorry, guys, I didn't mean to p*ss in the garden.
I have nothing against Hideki Matsui. I always thought he was a pro.
I just wonder why nobody ever celebrates the round-number achievement of anyone who split his career between MLB and the Pacific Coast League, or the Mexican League, or any other "MLB+__" combo.
Or why nobody ever celebrates the achievement of a guy who played in MLB first, then went over to Japan. "Warren Cromartie, superstar!" (BTW, Cro's book, Slugging It Out in Japan, is a good read.)
If I'm peevish, I guess it's because I'm anticipating a much bigger round of "milestone" balderdash with Ichiro -- and it's already annoying that his value is so widely misunderstood.
Doug, you may be right that Matsui would have had a 300-HR career in MLB if he's gotten here at the start of his career. Two things about that, though:
(1) He didn't get here at the start of his career; the issue isn't one of "fault," as you put it, but simply did or did not -- or do you celebrate Lefty Grove's 408-win career?
(2) Let's say we do project him to 300 MLB HRs, even 350. How many guys get headlines for reaching 300-350 HRs over a long career, unless they also have 300 SB, or a whole lot of hits, or some other major achievement?
I haven't come here to run down Matsui, but the fact is, he's famous here because he was first a big star in Japan; he got a completely undeserved All-Star nod in his first year with the Yankees (hitting .299 with 9 HRs at the break). If he had played his whole career here, odds are he'd be seen as just another pretty good, slugging corner OF, with no defensive value.
... And then I could write about how underrated he is. 🙂
July 21st, 2011 at 6:15 pm
I'm surprised these guys don't show up on each other's Similarity Scores. They're very close in a lot of ways, including coming to the Yankees after being established stars elsewhere:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/matsuhi01.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/kempst01.shtml
Very similar in career games, hits, OPS+, WAR; both were sub-par defenders in LF.
July 21st, 2011 at 6:16 pm
Ichiro has experienced the kinda decline one would expect for a player moving from Japan to the Majors.
But... his hits per game numbers have actually increased.
In Japan: 1.3027 hits per game (211 per 162 games)
In MLB: 1.3943 hits per game (226 per 162 games)
If you want to argue that since he joined the majors, that he is not as good of player as everyone has made him out to be - fine.
If you want to argue that his batting average, home run, RBI, stolen base, OBP, OPS+, and runs scored numbers do not transfer because he was playing in an inferior league; well, I can see your point.
But he averages MORE hits per game over here than he did over there. And he only played 130-135 game seasons in Japan. I think his 1278 total hits have been discounted enough already. I say, let's add it to his total (in our minds) and celebrate when his combined hit totals dethrone Pete Rose.
July 21st, 2011 at 6:41 pm
Don't forget Cecil Fielder! He becomes a 350-homer guy if you add his 38 home runs for the Hanshin Tigers in 1989 to his major league total.
July 21st, 2011 at 6:57 pm
@15, Thomas -- I do not dispute your inference that Ichiro would have, by now, perhaps 3,500 MLB hits had he played his whole career here.
But to me, that is only an argument for recognizing him as one of the greatest MLB players ever at amassing large numbers of hits -- and I already view him that way. The 10 good years he had here are more enough to make that case; it's easy to show that he holds not only the season hits record, but the record for most hits in a player's 1st "n" MLB seasons for every "n" from 1 to 11, except 3. He was the fastest to 1,000 hits and to 2,000 hits.
But it's quite another thing, in my mind, to imply that his hits in Japan should be viewed as part of his actual MLB hit total.
Bill James made a strong argument in the BJHBA for why his rankings did not "penalize" players for years that they were not in the majors due to forces beyond their control. And I mostly agree with that. If you want to argue that Ichiro was a better player than Rose, I wouldn't hold the "MLB career length" issue against Ichiro.
But if you want to count Ichiro's Japanese hits towards dethroning Pete Rose as the "Hit King," then your target number should be 4,683 -- because Rose got 427 hits in the minors, giving him a total of 4,682 professional hits. And if you're going to count minor-league hits for Ichiro, it's only fair and logical to do the same for Rose.
July 21st, 2011 at 7:27 pm
JA:
In the words of Vic "The Brick" Jacobs: "Feelin' YOU!"
I enjoyed your stuff, before and including your explanation...
July 21st, 2011 at 7:46 pm
The proof that Japanese baseball, while high quality, is not of the quality of Major League Baseball, lies in the stats of players who have played in both countries. Ichiro has been very successful, and Hideki Matsui has played well, but not nearly as well as he did in Japan. After Matsui, who else has done well? No one really. Hideo Nomo pitched well for a few years (123 wins), and Kazuhiro Sasaki was a good reliever for three years. But there is no one else who was really good. There have been several Major League also-rans who succeeded in Japan (look at posts 9 and 11).
Japanese baseball just isn't the same as American baseball, and you cannot compare Matsui's 500 home runs to the same number by a player who played in the United States.
July 21st, 2011 at 8:05 pm
I thought I remembered some no name player in the 90's going to Japan and having a 50 homer season there, and he was a guy that I don't think ever hit for much power in MLB...
July 21st, 2011 at 8:07 pm
@7 Re: 2003 ROY
Berroa: 287/338/451 17 HR, 73 RBI, 92 R, 21 SB, Played SS 4.0 WAR
Matsui: 287/353/435 16 HR, 106 RBI 82 R, 2 SB, Played LF, 0.3 WAR
The o/d WAR breaks out as Berroa: 3.8/0.2 and Matsui: 2.2/-1.9
So you have 2 players with comparable slash stats one of whom contributed some SB and also played a premium defensive position and did so decently. The other player was heavily hyped and played poor defense in LF.
Berroa's career may have subsequently fizzled, but it is hard to look at their stats from 2003 and say that Matsui was more deserving of the ROY than Berroa.
July 21st, 2011 at 8:08 pm
Hmm, the closest to what I remember that I can find is Randy Bass hitting 54 homers in 1985, after only hitting 9 in his MLB career.
July 21st, 2011 at 8:10 pm
Jimbo, you're probably thinking of Tuffy Rhodes.
July 21st, 2011 at 8:16 pm
no defensive value
I believe Matsui played CF in Japan. In his rookie season with the Yanks, he filled in at CF for about a month and actually acquitted himself quite well (although it's possible my outlook had been skewed by watching late-career Bernie scuffle around out there). I don't know how much CF he would have played in MLB in his 20s, but I'd guess he could have been a quality LF. His MLB fielding did seem decline quickly after his first couple seasons, however.
***
But if you want to count Ichiro's Japanese hits towards dethroning Pete Rose as the "Hit King," then your target number should be 4,683 -- because Rose got 427 hits in the minors, giving him a total of 4,682 professional hits. And if you're going to count minor-league hits for Ichiro, it's only fair and logical to do the same for Rose.
Well, Ichiro's Japanese hits came in the top professional league available to him, while Rose's minor league hits did not. It's not an equivalent comparison.
Regardless, I don't think anyone takes these numbers that seriously. I find it interesting Matsui now has 500 HR. I don't think it's that meaningful, and I'll probably forget all about it by next week, as will most people.
***
After Matsui, who else has done well? No one really
Takashi Saito was a superb reliever despite not getting here until he was 36. Hiroki Kuroda is a fine pitcher. It depends what you mean by doing "well." There have been numerous Japanese players who have been solid players here, though it's true that several so-called stars did not play like stars here. On the other side, there have been decent major leaguers who went over to Japan and fizzled out. Don't forget that most Japanese players have come here in their 30s, and should be expected to be on the decline. One might also look at the list of MLB free agents signed after age 30, see how most of them fail to live up to expectations, and decide they must never have been that good.
July 21st, 2011 at 8:19 pm
I read a statistical analysis some years back that Sadaharu Oh would have, with the right ballpark (i.e. Yankee Stadium due to his slap hitting to right field), still been a dominant hitter in the big leagues; something in the range of 450+ homers, assuming he had played his entire career in the US.
While that is certainly an impressive number, it's worth pointing out that it's nowhere near the 800+ he hit in Japan. Simply put, the quality of play is higher in the US and any comparisons between the two leagues will show that. So I'm with you, Autin.
July 21st, 2011 at 8:20 pm
Didn't Matt Murton break the single season hit record in Japan recently?
What does that say about the level of competetion there?
July 21st, 2011 at 8:22 pm
Anybody here ever hear of apples and oranges?
July 21st, 2011 at 8:24 pm
it is hard to look at their stats from 2003 and say that Matsui was more deserving of the ROY than Berroa.
Not hard for the NY media. Ken Singleton was just complaining about it on tonight's broadcast, trying to prove that it had been discrimination (despite Ichiro's winning ROY in '01).
I don't trust that Total Zone number for '03. I don't think Matsui was that bad that season. Still, even if you just consider him an average defender, he's still outdone by Berroa. It seemed clear to me in '03 that Berroa's performance was better, since he had hit nearly as well while playing SS. And during the season, no one seemed to think Matsui was great....he must have grounded out to second about 200 times, and this was widely commented on. Then the year ended and he had 100 RBI and everyone decided he must have had a great season. And 8 years later we're still complaining that he got ripped off by Angel Who.
July 21st, 2011 at 8:34 pm
@19, @24.
Here are the home-run totals for all the Japanese-born players who have homered in the majors.
Not many (and two of them aren't Japanese).
Hideki Matsui, 168, 2003-2011
Ichiro Suzuki, 91, 2001-2011
Kenji Johjima, 48, 2006-2009
Tadahito Iguchi, 44, 2005-2008
Kosuke Fukudome, 37, 2008-2011
Kazuo Matsui, 32, 2004-2010
Dave Roberts, 23, 1999-2008
Tsuyoshi Shinjo, 20, 2001-2003
So Taguchi, 19, 2002-2009
Akinori Iwamura, 16, 2007-2010
Hideo Nomo, 4, 1995-2008
Keith McDonald, 3, 2000-2001
Kazuhisa Ishii, 1, 2002-2005
Masato Yoshii, 1, 1998-2002
July 21st, 2011 at 9:00 pm
Tadahito Iguchi was pretty hyped when he came over. He had a few monster seasons in Japan. I think he hit 330 & was a 30 - 30 guy before the White Sox got him.
He never came close to that offensive production but for a second baseman his .275 with 15 HRs, 70 RBIs & 15 SBs in less than 140 games a year was at least respectable.
Of couse being a part of the '05 White Sox I have a soft spot for the guy...
July 21st, 2011 at 9:02 pm
JA, you can make a contrarian argument without being sarcastic and borderline culturally-insensitive.
July 21st, 2011 at 9:16 pm
@31, Bip -- Please be specific about my transgressions. I don't feel any kind of bias that would lead me to be culturally insensitive, but of course we all have unconscious biases, and I am open to hearing about your perception of mine.
I do not think it is insensitive to call the Japanese baseball leagues "minor leagues," vis-a-vis Major League Baseball. If someone referred to the top U.S. soccer league, whatever it's called, as a "minor league" compared to England's Premier League, would that be culturally insensitive? No, it would be an accurate description.
But perhaps there was something else I said?
July 21st, 2011 at 9:24 pm
I suspect that Bip is responding to this:
"Ach, I knew this topic would rear its Godzillian head!"
When I first read that, I actually had a similar response to Bip, until I remembered that Godzilla is Matsui's nickname, and you weren't simply making a blanket Japanese reference.
July 21st, 2011 at 9:46 pm
@24, JT -- Generally thoughtful analysis. However:
"Ichiro's Japanese hits came in the top professional league available to him, while Rose's minor league hits did not. It's not an equivalent comparison."
True ... sort of. But you're making the same kind of nuanced distinction that I want to make, but that some who want Ichiro's Japanese hits recognized refuse to make. I don't think Rose's 2 years in Class D should be counted on his MLB record -- and I wouldn't dispute a claim that those leagues were not up to the level of competition Ichiro faced in Japan. The '62 Class A "Sally" League, though? That's tougher. There were a lot of MLB veterans and future MLBers in that league.
The point isn't that I want to recognize Pete Rose's minor-league stats; I don't. The point is that if someone wants to annex Ichiro's stats in Japan to those in MLB, on the grounds that the Japanese majors play (at least arguably) at a higher level than any other league outside of MLB (even if those leagues are also demonstrably below MLB), then they have to deal with all the other minor leagues, too. They must figure out where those leagues fit in the competitive hierarchy, and to what extent those other minor-league stats should be counted on a player's MLB resume.
P.S. I said "true ... sort of" because, in one sense, those class-D leagues Rose played in were the highest leagues open to him. Once he signed with the Reds, he had to go where they sent him. He had no realistic alternative to play at a higher level than class D in 1960-61.
What's the point of that distinction, anyway? Several MLB players did their WWII service basically by playing baseball to entertain the troops (and to please the brass). Those games were at the top level of competition open to them, and they were certainly at least semi-pro. Does that matter?
July 21st, 2011 at 9:48 pm
We're definitely heading down a slippery slope when minor league statistics are added to major league statistics, the Japanese league simply doesn't compare with MLB. Ichiro is a hall of famer, and Matsui is a very good player, but other Japanese players seem to have problems staying healthy.
NFL fans don't add college football stats to what players do at the highest level, so that is the best approach here.
July 21st, 2011 at 9:51 pm
JT @28,
I'm eagerly awaiting the YES Network text poll asking the audience to vote on who deserves the ROY with Eduardo Nunez as one of the options.
Matsui had 25 GDP that year so your recollection of a lot of groundouts is probably fairly accurate.
---
And no discussion of Japanese players in MLB would be complete without mentioning Satoru Komiyama aka "The Japanese Greg Maddux."
July 21st, 2011 at 9:54 pm
@33, Andy -- Well, OK. I did assume that anyone reading about Hideki Matsui on B-R would know his nickname, but maybe that fact is more widely known in the NYC area than elsewhere in the States. And maybe I tried to be too clever.
It would be ironic, though, if I were thought culturally insensitive for referencing a nickname that was bestowed on Matsui in Japan.
I mean, I accept that a white guy can't use the "N" word, no matter how much black guys use it on each other. But I never heard that Matsui's "Godzilla" nickname had that sort of "insiders-only" restriction.
July 21st, 2011 at 9:57 pm
@36, Evan -- Perhaps you heard tonight's YES text poll, finding that if they had to win one game, a vast majority of respondents would rather have CC on the mound than Roy Halladay?
(Then again, maybe those answering here in the NYC area were assuming the game would take place in the kind of 96-degree heat we had today.)
July 21st, 2011 at 10:18 pm
Here are the home-run totals for all the Japanese-born players who have homered in the majors. Not many
Yes, it does seem that power hitting transfers far less effectively from JP to MLB than other skills do.
***
The '62 Class A "Sally" League, though? That's tougher. There were a lot of MLB veterans and future MLBers in that league.
Did they have MLB talent at the time though?
While it seems few if any Japanese players are able to star in MLB, I'll bet there are dozens of players over there right now who are capable of starting here. I'm sure there wasn't the case of the '62 Sally League. *Maybe* there's one or two players in A ball who, if suddenly promoted to the majors, would find their footing and handle it alright.
***
those class-D leagues Rose played in were the highest leagues open to him. Once he signed with the Reds, he had to go where they sent him. He had no realistic alternative to play at a higher level than class D in 1960-61.
Come on. He had the opportunity to play in the majors, if the Reds felt he was good enough. He (probably) wasn't. He had to gain professional experience and work on his game. If he had batted .500, he would have been promoted to the majors. If Ichiro batted .500 in JP, he still couldn't come to the majors.
I don't think the military argument has any merit. But sure, if someone kept stats for games at Fort Hamilton, I'd be interested in seeing them.
***
Perhaps you heard tonight's YES text poll, finding that if they had to win one game, a vast majority of respondents would rather have CC on the mound than Roy Halladay?
I was a little surprised by the results on that one. I don't think they're usually *quite* so Yankee-centric. Seemed like an odd batch of pitchers to choose from, as well (Beckett, Halladay, Sabathia, Shields, and I forgot the 5th. Sabathia-Shields was the pitching matchup tonight, so I guess that explains it to an extent).
July 21st, 2011 at 10:50 pm
Here's something to note about Matsui...he's one of the best postseason hitters ever. Looking at players with at least 150 PA's in the postseason, he's one of only a handful with a batting average of .300 or better AND an OPS of .900 or better. The only guys I've found like that are:
Ruth: .326 BA, 1.211 OPS
Gehrig: .361 BA, 1.208 OPS
Brett: .337 BA, 1.023 OPS
Pujols: .322 BA, 1.009 OPS
Matsui: .312 BA, .933 OPS
Garvey: .338 BA, .910 OPS
The other guys who have an OPS above .900 but a BA below .300 are:
Manny: .285 BA, .937 OPS
Bonds: .245 BA, .936 OPS
A-Rod: .290 BA, .925 OPS
Giambi: .290 BA, .911 OPS
Ortiz: .283 BA, .908 OPS
The other guys I looked at, who don't have as high as a .900 OPS with at least 150 playoff PA's are: Mantle, Berra, DiMaggio, Jeter, J.Robinson, Bernie, Posada, Justice, Tino, Lofton, Chipper, O'Neill, Reggie, Vizquel, Thome, Damon, Grissom, Rickey, Utley, Rose, Roberto Alomar & Sandy Alomar, Stargell, R.Howard, Sheffield, J.Morgan, P.W. Reese, Hodges, Randolph, M.Williams, J.Kent, B.Dickey, Gant and Bench. I'm sure I missed players that have over 150 playoff PA's. And of course, not all players are fortunate to get so many PA's in the playoffs. But in any case, Matsui has been quite the player in the playoffs, as not all that many can say they were better than he was in extended postseason baseball (which is pretty cool in my book).
July 21st, 2011 at 11:16 pm
When I first got a text that Manny had 'retired' - I immediately thought - "oh boy, he's going to Japan, gonna make a billion and laugh all the way across the Pacific" -
Of course that thought did not come to fruition, but theoretically, do the Japanese Leagues have to honor MLB's contracts or follow MLB's rules?
I remember reading that Alfonso Soriano hastily signed with a Japanese team out of fear no MLB team would have him.
Then when the Yankees came calling, he had tons of trouble getting out of his Japanese contract. It took him something like two years and three Lawyers to get back to America.
I wonder if Manny COULD? if he wanted, go play for Japan.
And as far as everyone tip toeing around the issue, the truth (its not PC) but most Japanese players do not make great players here because they are on average much smaller and (I'm gonna take some lumps but its true) Japanese aren't as strong.
I'm no racist. I'm not Jimmy 'the Greek'. I'm just gonna not pussyfoot around the thing.
60 minutes, which I consider to be one of the last bastions of good journalism, where no one can call them racist or close minded or un-PC, ran a story a while back about the Island of American Samoa.
This Island has a population of 65,000. Of that, 30 are current professional NFL football players and an additional 200 play Division I NCAA Football.
that may not sound like a lot, but if the same % of NFL players came out of California, there'd be 11,220 NFL players from the Golden state. If we add the Div. 1 players to the thirty already in the NFL, and use California as an example again, There'd be 129,000 NFL players from california.
Or put it this way, most of us come from small towns, probably about 65,000 people. (I live in Brooklyn, but I digress), but Imagine an entire MLB team, with MLB talent, fielded by residents of your town.
And get this, there was no youth football league in American Samoa until last year.
Was 60 MINUTES racist?
Or were they just quoting numbers? Wondering how this could be? They concluded something like GENETICS might be involved. I'm sure a producer lost his job at CBS after that one. But... what else could be a logical explanation.
The people from that island are big. REAL BIG. REAL FAST. REAL STRONG.
And maybe, just maybe, if we all quit mamby pambying about, someone just might have the courage to say Japanese players don't make it here because they are smaller on average.
Is Matsui a big guy? Sure. But he is atypical.
Hideo Nomo was a pretty good pitcher for while, but I truly believed, the lack of scouting and his unorthodox motion got him a good portion of those early SOs.
Will there be stars from Japan in the future?
I'm quite sure.
Will it be as many as San Pedro De Marquis, I doubt it. Sue Me.
http://www.ipacific.com/forum/index.php?topic=463.0
July 21st, 2011 at 11:22 pm
Congrats to Matsui, although I don't have too much time to focus on it. I'm still trying to figure out the celebration of Jeter's 3,000th hit this month, when he actually had it years back when including his 550 hits in the minors.
July 22nd, 2011 at 12:15 am
@40.
More .300 BA and .900 OPS guys, with 150+ post-season PAs
Fred McGriff, .303, .917
Dropping the threshold to 125 PAs (still pretty high, especially for guys who only got to play in the WS), you get these guys:
Paul Molitor, .368, 1.050
Will Clark, .333, .956
Nomar Garciaparra, ..321, .975
Lenny Dykstra, .321, 1.094
Lance Berkman, .320, 1.001
Kevin Youkilis, .306, .944
July 22nd, 2011 at 12:22 am
@41 The numbers you cite re: American Samoans in the NFL isn't quite accurate. The approximately 30 NFL players are of ALL Samoans, not just those who were born and raised in American Samoa. Looking at Pro Football Reference, there are only 5 current players who were actually born in American Samoa. Still a lot for such a small place but it does change the picture a bit. And BTW, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your overall conclusions.
July 22nd, 2011 at 12:31 am
"And as far as everyone tip toeing around the issue, the truth (its not PC) but most Japanese players do not make great players here because they are on average much smaller and (I'm gonna take some lumps but its true) Japanese aren't as strong."
Yeah, 32 year-old athletes are renowned for their durability.
July 22nd, 2011 at 12:56 am
Ebessan,
Ok, the 32 year old guy is washed up, but where are the 22 year old kids from Hiroshima?
Playing for the Carp.
That's where they'll be when they are 32, when an over the hill scout, over hypes the next "Matsui" − and we wind up with Kaz not Hideki.
Trust me. If a 22 year old kid was good enough to play in MLB, regardless of his country of origin, he would be there.
Take a look at Brazil - best soccer in the world. Who do their best play for?
The Euro-teams. Because they are the best. Both in money and talent.
That is why soccer will never succeed here. Because if an US agent even starts to sniff a high school kid is that good at soccer, he ain't shopping him to the Red Bulls. The talent follows the money.
That's why Jose Reyes is not playing SS for the Villa Gonzalez Gilla Monsters. Sure he'd love to give his hometown the discount and play for his country... but you can only test yourself against the best once.
And an agent, would never let a kid pass up the money.
That's why there are scouts looking at Pakistani Cricket players. I think the Pirates drafted one a year or two ago.
July 22nd, 2011 at 1:05 am
If a 22 year old kid was good enough to play in MLB, regardless of his country of origin, he would be there.
That's not true. I think JP and MLB have an agreement, official or otherwise, not to interfere with each other's amateurs. Yu Darvish has been on MLB radar since before he was 22 and he's not here.
July 22nd, 2011 at 3:02 am
@24, Johnny Twisto says: Well, Ichiro's Japanese hits came in the top professional league available to him, while Rose's minor league hits did not. It's not an equivalent comparison.
----------
I'm not sure what you're driving at here. Are you saying that Ichiro's non-MLB hits are more "authentic" than Rose's, and should be counted, while Rose's non-MLB hits shouldn't? Of course the correct answer is none should be counted since they were not achieved in MLB and therefore have nothing to do with the MLB hit record.
If on the other hand someone is trying to figure out who is the all-time hit leader (or HR leader, or strikeout leader, etc.) in all professional leagues around the world, then all the stats from a player's professional time needs to be included. I have no idea if Japanese pro ball is any better than AAA ball.
July 22nd, 2011 at 3:20 am
@37, John Autin. You are correct. Godzilla is Matsui's very well recognized nickname that he's had since Japan and has traveled with him to every team he's played on.
Here's one Japanese publication for a drink he promotes:
http://publicidadjapon.com/2009/12/14/la-publicidad-y-godzilla/hideki-matsui-godzilla/
Here's one from the Oakland A's scoreboard:
http://freeimagefinder.com/detail/5836038190.html
July 22nd, 2011 at 3:26 am
@36, Evan writes: I'm eagerly awaiting the YES Network text poll asking the audience to vote on who deserves the ROY with Eduardo Nunez as one of the options.
--------------------
Living now in the NY region with access to what's being said in the media, I can assure you that there is no chance Nunez would win that poll, even if he was up against Red Sox players. He is not too popular based on his non-stop fielding errors.
July 22nd, 2011 at 3:42 am
@28, Johnny Twisto says: Not hard for the NY media. Ken Singleton was just complaining about it on tonight's broadcast, trying to prove that it had been discrimination (despite Ichiro's winning ROY in '01)
-----------
It extends beyond the NY media. Plenty of media members outside of NY thought there was discimination regarding Matsui and they may have been correct. The discrimination, however, was based on ignoring the ROY Award rules and a number of writers leaving Matsui off their ballots entirely because he had played in the Japanese professional leagues. There was suddenly a growing concern because of Ichiro and then Matsui that Japanese imports were going to dominate the ROY voting, so some writers decided to make up their own rules. It was discrimination.
Fact is, Matsui (and all players coming from Japan) are moving from inferior leagues to the most dominant and competitive league in the world. They are rookies in MLB, and as we now know, most won't thrive or even survive. Matsui himself faced a learning curve that first season, just as all players moving from AAA and AA to the majors do. Matsui deserved full consideration as a rookie. He wasn't given that, and that's discrimination.
In the end the BBWAA voting members picked the right guy since Berroa's season as a SS was more valuable. They achieved it though bad reasoning and certainly some discrimination.
July 22nd, 2011 at 5:33 am
The question here is: how comparable are Nippon Professional Baseball and Major League Baseball?
For now the question remains a "what-if" and fodder for interesting discussion, like this (thanks to all, especially to John Autin for starting it, Doug for his NPB/MLB player numbers, and Johnny Twisto for being what appears to be the only defender of Japanese players with in depth posts; no disrespect to all those who only have time for short posts).
This argument has been slowly building up more stats and facts to back it up since 1995 when Hideo Nomo (and Don Nomura, his agent), started the current NPB- MLB "posting" exchange system by breaking the old NPB "reserve" system. Despite 16 years plus, no one has figured out a way to directly compare the two leagues.
@3, @9 & @29; Doug's lists are a great start. This kind of comparison has always fascinated and vexed me since I was a kid and some wiseacre sports journalist brought up Sadaharu Oh's 800+ home runs in the newspaper. No one then had any concrete way to disprove that it was easier for him to get there than it was for Hammerin' Hank to get 755. And I don't believe there is a way now, either. That doesn't mean that I think Oh's record is better, just that there is no surefire statistical way to prove that it isn't, yet.
I am pretty sure that equating Nippon Professional Baseball with MILB teams is specious, apologies to John Autin. I like the "AAA+ or AAAA" metaphor, but until directly comparable numbers are available this isn't really any better. It would take years and years of direct exchanges and competition; and game logs allowing relative statistics like ERA+, OPS+ and WAR to be compiled and compared between leagues on different levels, and until then, no one knows.
And as for Ichiro and Rose's record, some of the problem there comes from good ol' Charlie Hustle, who allegedly said "let 'em have his Japanese hits".
I don't think that they are exactly the same, and it will remain an interesting "what-if" if Ichiro does get near the record with his combined hits (and that second if is now looking like a big one). As J.A. has more or less said, his career can be evaluated for its other superlatives (hits/season, consecutive seasons of 200+ hits, etc.).
I don't think that anyone is serious about Matsui's 500+ professional home runs meaning more than a great "what-if", either.
July 22nd, 2011 at 7:17 am
Pujos would hit 100 homers a year in japan-the leagues are incomparable i think that @36 evan was joking about Nunez being considered for ROY
July 22nd, 2011 at 7:43 am
Some of the many players who excelled in both the minors and majors. Feel free to add others.
Honorary Member of 400 HR Club
Dick Stuart hit 228 ML 221 minors
Honorary Cy Young Award Winners: Luis Tiant, Cal Eldred, Monte Pearson, Carl Hubbell (10 wins in majors and minors, same year)
Honorary Member of 40 HR Club
Mike Stanton in 2010 21 homers in minors, 22 in majors
Honorary Member of 200 Hit Club
Dan Gladden had 93 hits in the minors and 120 in the majors
Honorary Member of 400 Win Club
Left Grove 111 wins before majors debut, 300 majors
Honorary Members of 300 Win Club
Bobo Newsom 146 minors, 211 majors
Jesse Haines 107 minors, 210 majors
Rube Benton was the only one I found with 150 in both (172 minors, 150 majors, Won 115 in minors from ages 36 to 43)
Honorary Members of 200 Win Club
Hoyt Wilhelm 143 major league wins, 109 minors(107 before his debut at age 29).
Ray Kremer 115 minors, 143 majors, played 10 seasons in majors starting at age 31 with a ML winning % of .627
Honorary Members of 3000 Hit Club
Babe Herman had 771 before his Major League debut, 1818 in the majors and 774 in the minors after he retired for a total of 3363, the only 1500/1500 hitter that I found.
Julio Franco for 3864 hits in US, Korea, Japan and Mexico (0.305 batting average)
Sam Crawford (3806) ML(2961) pre-ML career (64) POST ML CAREER!!(781)
Next Year’s Rookie of the Year candidates:
Bill Thomas won 383 games in the minors and never pitched in the majors.
Sadaharu Oh
July 22nd, 2011 at 9:19 am
It's interesting to note where the comments on this thread have gone. It's a simple fact that Matsui has hit 500 career homers at the highest levels of the two professional leagues he's played in. I wasn't trying to say anything about whether his NPB homers "count as much" as his MLB homers or how the two leagues compare. I just think it's impressive that he's accumulated 500 homers. Yeah, it's probably less impressive than a guy who did it all in MLB, because MLB is almost certainly significantly more competitive, but Matsui is still a good player with a great career, for either league.
July 22nd, 2011 at 9:39 am
@52
Hub Kid, nice reasoned summary of previous posts plus your own position.
@54
Charles, as slow as I am with the database, it would take me forever to put together a list like yours, 🙁 Thanks for the numbers.
For sure, however, minor league stats have no business being amalgated with major league ones, nor do Japanese league ones, in my opinion.
It is difficult to add anything more to all the comments but it certainly isn't being racist to say that the average stature and build of Korean/Japanese men is less than South and North American men.
Changing the focus slightly, wouldn't we all be in agreement that the skills of Japanese pitchers translate better to North American play than Japanese hitters? Maybe the point is debatable, but if it is true, why?
Again, perhaps size and strength, are not as important in pitching as in home-run hitting. Finesse and control play an equally important role.
July 22nd, 2011 at 9:43 am
@55
Andy, where would you rank NPB in terms of our AAA, AA and major leagues?
July 22nd, 2011 at 10:19 am
@43 - good catch with McGriff and for dropping down to 125 PA's, I added the guys you mentioned into the following list...players with 125 postseason PA's sorted by OPS (with BA listed in the first column and then OPS next). Again, I may have missed some players. Some players on the list have way more AB's than others and some may say that 125+ PA's is too small of a sample size to make any judgements but in any case, here are the actual numbers...Matsui looks pretty good:
Ruth: .326 BA - 1.211 OPS (167 PA)
Gehrig: .361 BA – 1.208 OPS (150 PA)
Dykstra: .321 BA – 1.094 OPS (136 PA)
Molitor: .368 BA – 1.050 OPS (132 PA)
Brett: .337 BA – 1.023 OPS (184 PA)
Pujols: .322 BA – 1.009 OPS (239 PA)
Berkman: .320 BA – 1.001 OPS (148 PA)
Nomar: .321 BA - .975 OPS (127 PA)
W.Clark: .333 BA - .956 OPS (132 PA)
D.Snider: .286 BA - .945 OPS (149 PA)
Youkilis: .306 BA - .944 OPS (125 PA)
Manny: .285 BA - .937 OPS (493 PA)
Bonds: .245 BA - .936 OPS (208 PA)
*****Matsui: .312 BA - .933 OPS (235 PA)*****
A-Rod: .290 BA - .925 OPS (276 PA)
McGriff - .303 BA - .917 OPS (218 PA)
Giambi: .290 BA - .911 OPS (174 PA)
Garvey: .338 PA - .910 OPS (232 PA)
Ortiz: .283 BA - .908 OPS (289 PA)
Mantle: .257 BA - .908 OPS (273 PA)
R.Howard: .278 BA - .899 OPS (178 PA)
Reggie: .278 BA - .885 OPS (318 PA)
Edmonds: .274 BA - .874 OPS (263 PA)
T.Munson: .357 BA - .874 OPS (135 PA)
E.Martinez: .266 BA - .873 OPS (148 PA)
Chipper: .288 BA - .871 OPS (412 PA)
Stargell: .278 BA - .871 OPS (153 PA)
Ripken Jr: .336 BA - .866 OPS (124 PA)
Utley: .243 BA - .862 OPS (183 PA)
Bench: .266 PA - .862 OPS (188 PA)
Jeter: .309 BA - .850 OPS (679 PA)
Bernie: .275 BA - .850 OPS (545 PA)
Strawberry: .254 BA - .845 OPS (145 PA)
Kent: .276 BA - .840 OPS (189 PA)
Henderson: .284 BA - .831 OPS (262 PA)
R.Alomar: .313 BA - .829 OPS (263 PA)
O’Neill: .284 BA - .828 OPS (340 PA)
Rose: .321 BA - .828 OPS (300 PA)
E.Murray: .258 BA - .825 OPS (186 PA)
J.Lopez: .278 BA - .817 OPS (225 PA)
D.White: .296 BA - .815 OPS (211 PA)
Berra: .274 BA - .811 OPS (295 PA)
Olerud: .278 BA - .801 OPS (273 PA)
Grissom: .317 BA - .800 OPS (231 PA)
Sheffield: .248 BA - .799 OPS (202 PA)
A.Jones: .273 BA - .797 OPS (278 PA)
Baylor: .273 BA - .791 OPS (141 PA)
Thome: .217 BA - .790 OPS (251 PA)
Damon: .279 BA - .783 OPS (262 PA)
Hodges: .267 BA - .761 OPS (151 PA)
J.DiMaggio: .271 BA - .760 OPS (220 PA)
Cano: .248 BA - .757 OPS (152 PA)
Dye: .270 BA - .745 OPS (181 PA)
Pinella: .305 BA - .736 OPS (145 PA)
B.Richardson: .305 BA - .735 OPS (138 PA)
Posada: .241 BA - .729 OPS (473 PA)
Furillo: .266 BA - .721 OPS (144 PA)
Boggs: .273 BA - .720 OPS (174 PA)
Justice: .224 BA - .717 OPS (471 PA)
Canseco: .184 BA - .713 OPS (124 PA)
Matt Williams: .247 BA - .709 OPS (214 PA)
B.Dickey: .255 BA - .709 OPS (161 PA)
I.Rodriguez: .255 BA - .706 OPS (170 PA)
Brosius: .245 BA - .696 OPS (217 PA)
Campanella: .237 BA - .696 OPS (130 PA)
P.W.Reese: .272 BA - .695 OPS (191 PA)
Gant: .228 BA - .694 OPS (210 PA)
E.Howard: .246 BA - .692 OPS (189 PA)
Schmidt: .236 BA - .690 OPS (158 PA)
Bagwell: .226 BA - .685 OPS (129 PA)
J.Robinson: .234 BA - .679 OPS (160 PA)
H.Bauer: .245 BA - .678 OPS (199 PA)
Tino: .233 BA - .672 OPS (405 PA)
R.Rolfe: .284 BA - .672 OPS (128 PA)
J.Morgan: .182 BA - .671 OPS (222 PA)
T.Perez: .238 BA - .669 OPS (189 PA)
Bonilla: .215 BA - .669 OPS (172 PA)
McGwire: .217 BA - .669 OPS (151 PA)
Lofton: .247 BA - .667 OPS (438 PA)
Maris: .217 BA - .667 OPS (171 PA)
Knoblauch: .258 BA - .663 OPS (282 PA)
Rizzuto: .246 BA - .650 OPS (219 PA)
Randolph: .222 BA - .650 OPS (184 PA)
W.Wilson: .267 BA - .648 OPS (160 PA)
Vizquel: .250 BA - .643 OPS (264 PA)
Nettles: .225 BA - .641 OPS (207 PA)
B.Meusel: .225 BA - .630 OPS (144 PA)
G.Tenace: .146 BA - .627 OPS (146 PA)
Biggio: .234 BA - .618 OPS (185 PA)
S.Alomar: .214 BA - .611 OPS (183 PA)
F.White: .213 BA - .527 OPS (160 PA)
July 22nd, 2011 at 10:23 am
Oh BTW, I forgot to mention I listed Ripken Jr. and Canseco, who each have 124 postseason PA's...just one away from the 125 threshold so I said what the heck.
July 22nd, 2011 at 10:42 am
@58
Dave V., thanks for the list.
My first reaction is Matsui ahead of A-Rod in post-season OPS!!! How will the Matsui detractors process that?
July 22nd, 2011 at 10:43 am
NPB seems to be better than the Mexican League, which is considered AAA, so maybe it's like a High-AAA, or AAA+ or something. But certainly it's no comparison to MLB, especially not to the integrated, world-wide-recruiting MLB of 2011 that gets the best in the world to play here.
Charlie Manuel was a career .198 hitter in MLB. He hit .303 in NPB with 189 home runs. There's no comparison.
July 22nd, 2011 at 10:44 am
JA,
I have never been a big Matsui guy, but you seemed to be misdirecting some angry feelings early in in this thread.
You definitely redeemed yourself, though, by bringing up Steve Kemp, who I loved on the Tigers and was thrilled to see get traded to the Yanks.
Unfortunately, Kemp was anything but Matsui-like in his brief time with the Yankees. He was very similar to another player I loved seeing the Yankees get, Mike Easler.
July 22nd, 2011 at 10:50 am
Neil @57:
That's a tough question because of how the MLB minor leagues are used. Up through the early 1990s, I think NPB was about equivalent to AAA. But more recently, teams have been keeping their best players in AA for the most seasoning and instead using AAA more like a shelf for utility players to shuttle up and down from the major league club. That is of course an oversimplification, but in general I think there is more high-end talent found in AA now as compared to AAA than there used to be--at least the ratio is shifting somewhat.
I think it's also tough to directly compare the leagues because the style of play is a little different, as are the dimensions of the stadiums. Bobby Valentine recently talked about how much emphasis and excitement the 3-2 pitch has in Japan, and that throwing 3 balls to a batter is sometimes a matter of course just to set up the 3-2 pitch. No such scheme exists here in the US. I'm sure that has an effect on things like pitch counts, walk rates, etc.
Other commenters above who have looked at how Japanese players have done in MLB and the reverse are on, I think, the best path for making a comparison between the two leagues.
July 22nd, 2011 at 11:13 am
@56 Good points. Most of the players on my list played into their forties and either had a significant minor league career before entering the majors or a significant career when their MLB days were over. I’ve read biographies of most of the people on the list to try to find out their story. I easily could have selected more players with 100/100 wins at both levels or included a player with close to 3000 hits or 500 HRs and added on their minor league numbers, but that wasn’t the kind of player that I was trying to find. The point of the list is to simply show a small group of good Major League players who had comparable minor league and major league numbers that together add up to quite a bit, showing their determination to play ball at any level. I chose to use the term Honorary to express my own opininon and to set them apart from the MLB only classification.
July 22nd, 2011 at 11:17 am
Wait...
****BREAKING NEWS****
3,000 miles from San Francisco, in a poor, rustic section of Mobile, Alabama - referred to as "Down the Bay," an 82 year old Derrel Piedmont has come forward after years of fearing reprisal from a semi-famous local bully named Tommy, to openly questions the veracity of Barry Bond's title of HOME-RUN KING.
The claim, while it has nothing to do with PEDs, is hard to verify, due to differing newspaper accounts, but has Piedmont admitting to serving up "dozens" of "dingers" to Hank Aaron during games of wiffle ball in 'Old Man Wilson's Lot' - a lot, reserved for only the best wiffle ball players of the day.
Sally Maze, a fragile but sharp resident of "Down the Bay" remembers being struck with one of these 'taters' as the then, 7 year old, walked home from the 1st regional Southern Baptist Church near Wilson's lot.
"The ball just struck my ice cream cone, I never saw it coming" says a still shuck up Maze.
"Them boys were always smashing and yelling." Maze, now 81, still recalls.
But as Joe Torre boards a DC-130, on his way to Mobile, then Down the Bay, to tally the true total, the baseball world waits eagerly for his findings, all wishing Hank gets the record.
"Don't care about no Smoe Story or Joe Torre" - Piedmont, with a shock of white hair states proudly. "We was there. Ain't no Barry Bonds gonna take what I gave to Hank. 50, maybe 60 roundtrippers"
Just then, a haggard, but still wily Tommy Aaron rushes into the room and gives Piedmont a wedgie then races out of the room.
"Maybe, I shoulda just kept my mouth shut," says a visibly shaken Piedmont, pulling the wedgie from his arse.
July 22nd, 2011 at 12:00 pm
@55, Andy --
"It's a simple fact that Matsui has hit 500 career homers at the highest levels of the two professional leagues he's played in. ... I just think it's impressive that he's accumulated 500 homers."
Fair enough. It's clear now that you did not intend to equate NPB and MLB.
But I think some readers, including myself, understandably had a different impression of your "take" on this story, based on two things:
(1) The title for this post: "The latest member of the 500 HR club: Hideki Matsui".
-- "The" 500 HR club? To me, that unadorned phrase always means 500 HRs in MLB; any other 500 HR club should be specified. It is, in a sense, a provocative phrase with with to headline the Matsui story.
(2) This question at the end of the post: "Does anybody have a complete list of all players to have 500 homers spread across both leagues?" (emphasis added)
-- "Both" leagues? I'm sure it was clear to some readers that this phrase was not intended to delineate NPB and MLB as "the" set of leagues that constitute "the" 500 HR club. But I think you can see how some readers would put (1) and (2) together and interpret your angle quite differently than you meant it.
July 22nd, 2011 at 12:03 pm
JA, I'm not criticizing anybody for how my post was interpreted. You seem a bit defensive. In 55 I was just explaining my original intent and how it differed from how it was perceived. I understand the difference in perception.
July 22nd, 2011 at 12:06 pm
Are you saying that Ichiro's non-MLB hits are more "authentic" than Rose's, and should be counted, while Rose's non-MLB hits shouldn't? Of course the correct answer is none should be counted since they were not achieved in MLB and therefore have nothing to do with the MLB hit record.
I agree, neither has anything to do with MLB. JA was stating that if one wants to add Ichiro's MLB and NPB hit numbers, then the only fair comparison is to also add Rose's MLB and minor league hit numbers. I disagreed, because Ichiro's NPB stats are from his country's major league, and Rose's minor league numbers are not. But one could add on Rose's minor league hits for a total professional tally. It doesn't *mean* anything. Some can find it interesting, others are free to ignore it. While I'd find it interesting if Ichiro surpasses Rose in combined hits, obviously that doesn't make him the MLB hit king.
***
The discrimination, however, was based on ignoring the ROY Award rules and a number of writers leaving Matsui off their ballots entirely because he had played in the Japanese professional leagues.
I remember the talk. Did any voters actually leave him off their ballots for that reason? I don't recall that happening. Do you have a link?
July 22nd, 2011 at 2:04 pm
@68
Johnny and others, why didn't most of the same writers discriminate against Ichiro for ROY in 2001 if they had a bias against Japanese players?
@65
Duke, it had slipped my mind what a creative story-teller you are. Your humour has an edge and the literary technique is ..... hmmmm ...... hyperbole, is it not? (Where's the English lit expert when you need him?)
Andy @63
Thanks, for the reply. So much in your first paragraph about the evolving role of the AA and AAA minors relative to the big league club that I would like to pursue, but it is tangential to this blog.
In brief, Greg Zahn, a commentator in my local market, was highly critical when a struggling major-leaguer, Travis Snider was sent down to Triple A. His point was that prospects have nothing more to learn or prove by being sent down one level. Just stick with them at the big-club level, take your lumps, and see what they can do instead of shuttling them back and forth. His implication, I think, was that AAA, particluarly the pitching, was not a lot better than AA.
Anyway, I've written more than I intended and it is off-topic. But I still think your post contains some interesting observations.
July 22nd, 2011 at 2:13 pm
Partially answering my own question in 68, Wiki says that two voters left Matsui off their ballot because of his age. Apparently the same voters had voted for Suzuki and Sasaki. (Is that right? I thought the various awards rotated around to different voters.)
That still doesn't mean they cost Matsui the ROY. If they both vote him third (I believe the ballots had three spots), it's two more points (5-3-1) and he still finishes second. Berroa beat him by 4 points. And placing him third would not be unreasonable. Four different players received 1st place votes that season (Berroa 12, Matsui 10, Baldelli 5, Teixeira 1). Jody Gerut also received votes and placed 4th overall, ahead of Tex.
July 22nd, 2011 at 2:15 pm
As far as official records or milestones go, you certainly can't add up the numbers in both leagues and call it a day, but it's worth the observation when a player accomplishes something like this. Matsui doesn't, and shouldn't, have "500" listed as his MLB HR total, but if you're looking at placing his baseball career in context, you do need to look at his Japanese numbers as well.
If someone's making the argument that he's a HoF player because of the milestone (I haven't seen that suggested) then that would be silly. If, on the other hand, someone uses the argument that you need to look past his MLB totals to get a sense of the kind of career he had, I'd agree with that.
July 22nd, 2011 at 2:20 pm
OK, found the complete balloting:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1658488
Berroa and Matsui were both named on 26 of 28 ballots. If those two voters did leave Matsui off solely because of his age (or because he had played in NPB), that's wrong and they should have lost their voting privileges. But one of them would have had to rank him at least 2nd for Matsui to get at least a tie. Seven voters thought him ballot-worthy but only placed him third. (Though there's the question of whether any voters downgraded him for his age/experience, but still kept him on the ballot.)
July 22nd, 2011 at 2:21 pm
Well said, WilsonC.
July 22nd, 2011 at 3:05 pm
JT @72,
I agree that leaving him off for those reasons is incorrect. I think there are plenty of legitimate reasons to leave him off and assume that his placement was as high as it was because of an over-valuing of RBIs and his profile because he played for the Yankees and the manner in which he entered the league.
But to still be talking about him being robbed after 8 years considering how he performed relative to his peers his ridiculous, though not atypical of what I have come to expect on the YES Network (hence my previous comments about Nunez).
As a side note on players being robbed in awards voting, I invite you to take a look at where Cal Ripken finished in the 1984 MVP voting on the awards page. He led the league in WAR, won MVP the previous season and had solid numbers with the exception of his 86 RBIs, yet finished with just 1 point in the voting, tied for 27th! If anyone knows any back story on that I'd be curious because I did a quick search months back and didn't come up with anything. Also, I was only 7 at the time so I had only been reading box scores for about 3 years and wasn't that interested in the articles just yet so I probably wouldn't have known/remembered other factors.
July 22nd, 2011 at 3:18 pm
@60 Neil L. - no problem and here's an expanded list, with another 40+ players added on, including M.Rivers with 124 PA's and L.Walker/V.Coleman with 121 PA's (none of the additional 40+ were better than Matsui by the way):
Ruth: .326 BA - 1.211 OPS (167 PA)
Gehrig: .361 BA – 1.208 OPS (150 PA)
Dykstra: .321 BA – 1.094 OPS (136 PA)
Molitor: .368 BA – 1.050 OPS (132 PA)
Brett: .337 BA – 1.023 OPS (184 PA)
Pujols: .322 BA – 1.009 OPS (239 PA)
Berkman: .320 BA – 1.001 OPS (148 PA)
Nomar: .321 BA - .975 OPS (127 PA)
W.Clark: .333 BA - .956 OPS (132 PA)
D.Snider: .286 BA - .945 OPS (149 PA)
Youkilis: .306 BA - .944 OPS (125 PA)
Manny: .285 BA - .937 OPS (493 PA)
Bonds: .245 BA - .936 OPS (208 PA)
*****Matsui: .312 BA - .933 OPS (235 PA)*****
A-Rod: .290 BA - .925 OPS (276 PA)
McGriff - .303 BA - .917 OPS (218 PA)
Giambi: .290 BA - .911 OPS (174 PA)
Garvey: .338 PA - .910 OPS (232 PA)
Ortiz: .283 BA - .908 OPS (289 PA)
Mantle: .257 BA - .908 OPS (273 PA)
R.Howard: .278 BA - .899 OPS (178 PA)
F.Robinson: .238 BA - .887 OPS (149 PA)
Reggie: .278 BA - .885 OPS (318 PA)
Edmonds: .274 BA - .874 OPS (263 PA)
T.Munson: .357 BA - .874 OPS (135 PA)
E.Martinez: .266 BA - .873 OPS (148 PA)
Chipper: .288 BA - .871 OPS (412 PA)
Stargell: .278 BA - .871 OPS (153 PA)
Ripken Jr: .336 BA - .866 OPS (124 PA)
Utley: .243 BA - .862 OPS (183 PA)
Bench: .266 BA - .862 OPS (188 PA)
L.Walker: .230 BA - .860 OPS (121 PA)
Jeter: .309 BA - .850 OPS (679 PA)
Bernie: .275 BA - .850 OPS (545 PA)
Strawberry: .254 BA - .845 OPS (145 PA)
Skowron: .293 BA - .845 OPS (141 PA)
Kent: .276 BA - .840 OPS (189 PA)
Henderson: .284 BA - .831 OPS (262 PA)
R.Alomar: .313 BA - .829 OPS (263 PA)
O’Neill: .284 BA - .828 OPS (340 PA)
Rose: .321 BA - .828 OPS (300 PA)
E.Murray: .258 BA - .825 OPS (186 PA)
Zeile:: .292 BA - .822 OPS (127 PA)
J.Lopez: .278 BA - .817 OPS (225 PA)
D.White: .296 BA - .815 OPS (211 PA)
Berra: .274 BA - .811 OPS (295 PA)
Pedroia: .252 BA - .804 OPS (132 PA)
Cey: .261 BA - .803 OPS (189 PA)
Olerud: .278 BA - .801 OPS (273 PA)
Grissom: .317 BA - .800 OPS (231 PA)
Sheffield: .248 BA - .799 OPS (202 PA)
A.Jones: .273 BA - .797 OPS (278 PA)
Baylor: .273 BA - .791 OPS (141 PA)
Thome: .217 BA - .790 OPS (251 PA)
T.Fernandez: .327 BA - .787 OPS (168 PA)
H.McRae: .294 BA - .785 OPS (164 PA)
B.Robinson: .303 BA - .785 OPS (156 PA)
Damon: .279 BA - .783 OPS (262 PA)
Klesko: .236 BA - .777 OPS (191 PA)
Lonnie Smith: .278 BA - .765 OPS (228 PA)
D.Baker: .282 BA - .764 OPS (164 PA)
Hodges: .267 BA - .761 OPS (151 PA)
J.DiMaggio: .271 BA - .760 OPS (220 PA)
B.Powell: .262 BA - .760 OPS (140 PA)
Cano: .248 BA - .757 OPS (152 PA)
Lazzeri: .262 BA - .754 OPS (125 PA)
M.Alou: .275 BA - .752 OPS (141 PA)
Dye: .270 BA - .745 OPS (181 PA)
Varitek: .237 BA - .744 OPS (252 PA)
S.Bando: .245 BA - .737 OPS (183 PA)
Pinella: .305 BA - .736 OPS (145 PA)
B.Richardson: .305 BA - .735 OPS (138 PA)
Posada: .241 BA - .729 OPS (473 PA)
D.Porter: .267 BA - .728 OPS (143 PA)
Furillo: .266 BA - .721 OPS (144 PA)
Boggs: .273 BA - .720 OPS (174 PA)
Justice: .224 BA - .717 OPS (471 PA)
D.Lopes: .238 BA - .717 OPS (208 PA)
W.McGee: .276 BA - .713 OPS (200 PA)
Canseco: .184 BA - .713 OPS (124 PA)
F.Frisch: .294 BA - .711 OPS (216 PA)
Matt Williams: .247 BA - .709 OPS (214 PA)
B.Dickey: .255 BA - .709 OPS (161 PA)
I.Rodriguez: .255 BA - .706 OPS (170 PA)
J.Rudi: .259 BA - .701 OPS (158 PA)
Brosius: .245 BA - .696 OPS (217 PA)
Campanella: .237 BA - .696 OPS (130 PA)
P.W.Reese: .272 BA - .695 OPS (191 PA)
Rolen: .216 BA - .695 OPS (142 PA)
Gant: .228 BA - .694 OPS (210 PA)
E.Howard: .246 BA - .692 OPS (189 PA)
Schmidt: .236 BA - .690 OPS (158 PA)
G.MacDougald: .237 BA - .689 OPS (215 PA)
M.Rivers: .308 BA - .689 OPS (124 PA)
Lemke: .272 BA - .688 OPS (257 PA)
Bagwell: .226 BA - .685 OPS (129 PA)
P.Blair: .260 BA - .684 OPS (161 PA)
B.Russell: .294 BA - .682 OPS (209 PA)
J.Robinson: .234 BA - .679 OPS (160 PA)
H.Bauer: .245 BA - .678 OPS (199 PA)
Furcal: .241 BA - .673 OPS (200 PA)
Tino: .233 BA - .672 OPS (405 PA)
R.Rolfe: .284 BA - .672 OPS (128 PA)
J.Morgan: .182 BA - .671 OPS (222 PA)
T.Perez: .238 BA - .669 OPS (189 PA)
Bonilla: .215 BA - .669 OPS (172 PA)
McGwire: .217 BA - .669 OPS (151 PA)
Lofton: .247 BA - .667 OPS (438 PA)
Maris: .217 BA - .667 OPS (171 PA)
Renteria: .252 BA - .666 OPS (278 PA)
Vlad: .263 BA - .664 OPS (188 PA)
Knoblauch: .258 BA - .663 OPS (282 PA)
T.Pendleton: .252 BA - .658 OPS (244 PA)
J.Blauser: .208 BA - .655 OPS (197 PA)
Rizzuto: .246 BA - .650 OPS (219 PA)
Randolph: .222 BA - .650 OPS (184 PA)
W.Wilson: .267 BA - .648 OPS (160 PA)
Counsell: .237 BA - .646 OPS (135 PA)
Vizquel: .250 BA - .643 OPS (264 PA)
D.Johnson: .225 BA - .642 OPS (126 PA)
Nettles: .225 BA - .641 OPS (207 PA)
Campaneris: .243 BA - .638 OPS (159 PA)
B.Meusel: .225 BA - .630 OPS (144 PA)
G.Tenace: .146 BA - .627 OPS (146 PA)
Biggio: .234 BA - .618 OPS (185 PA)
O.Smith: .236 BA - .617 OPS (169 PA)
Ventura: .177 BA - .614 OPS (153 PA)
S.Alomar: .214 BA - .611 OPS (183 PA)
R.Sanders: .195 BA - .609 OPS (251 PA)
V.Coleman: .198 BA - .535 OPS (121 PA)
F.White: .213 BA - .527 OPS (160 PA)
C.Geronimo: .167 BA - .509 OPS (131 PA)
M.Belanger: .183 BA - .508 OPS (143 PA)
Figgins: .172 BA - .469 OPS (135 PA)
(man oh man, Chone Figgins is absolutely atrocious in the playoffs...)
July 22nd, 2011 at 3:27 pm
@65/ Dukeofflatbush - very entertaining! It would have worked even better if did not include Tommy Aaron in its cast of characters, because he unfortunately passed away in 1984.
July 22nd, 2011 at 4:20 pm
Let's go back to the original post and ask why the question came up in the first place.
Andy, What is the point of adding Japanese stats to MLB stats?
A bunch of guys hit 500+ HR in Japan and never played MLB, so are the Japanese fans and media putting Hedki Matsui on that list by adding his MLB stats?
The list of guys who couldn't hit MLB pitching consistently, like Tuffy Rhodes, and then went on to stellar careers in Japan tells you everything you need to know about the level of pitching they faced.
If you're adding Japanese stats, then you have to add Triple A stats.
Joe DiMaggio's hitting streak thus becomes his PCL 61 game feat, not 56.
Wait, it gets even better.
Let's play with Joe's stats like others are doing here, projecting and assuming that if he played in Japan, he would have hit in 73 straight games, because his MLB streak wasn't just 56 in a row, it was 72 out of 73, and I'm willing to allow that if he got to face Japanese OR Triple A pitching in that 57th game, his streak would have continued.
RESPONSE TO NEIL L post #69 re: Greg Zahn's opinion that "prospects have nothing more to learn or prove by being sent down..."
That assumes that being called up to the majors proves they are ready to play at that level. Being sent down proves they aren't.
They have nothing more to learn?
Ask any player, he'll tell you it's a constant learning process.
July 22nd, 2011 at 5:20 pm
@77
Phil, the description is my paraphrase of Zahn's position and I am probably not doing it justice. He articulated it repeatedly on local all-sports radio stations and while doing color on local TV broadcasts.
Granted that Zahn is opinionated and critical, I stand by my account of his statement that sending down a player to tear up PCL pitching for a month and then recalling them serves no useful purpose. He may be right, IMO.
The issue, locally, may also exist with JP Arencibia, who is struggling big-time defensively (less that 13% runners thrown out) and offensively at the moment. The Mariners ran wild on him during the last series.
I realize that catchers are measured by a different yardstick offensively than other position players, but it may be a legitimate point of view that if AAA is a utility-player holding tank compared to AA, then to send a prospect back may not tell you much, based on his fresh minor-league stats.
Upon reflection, I should say that I think Zahn's comments were limited to position players and not pitchers.
July 22nd, 2011 at 9:35 pm
@John Autin ... actually, I'd argue that Ichiro IS at least as good as Rose. Average their WAR per year, even with the assumption that Ichiro turns in, say 1.8 total WAR per year for the rest of his career, and he comes out ahead. They're about even on OPS+ right now.
July 22nd, 2011 at 11:04 pm
@74, Evan, may I ask what team you follow?
July 22nd, 2011 at 11:39 pm
@72, Johnny Twisto -- That article hits right at what I was referring to with Matsui. To me, at least, he clearly was discriminated against because he came from the Japan. There was a bit of xenophobia going on.
One writer admits he left Matsui off the ballot because he thought Japanese players should be treated differently, even though the voting rules clearly state who should be treated as a rookie, and Matsui fit that definition of a rookie. That writer ignored those rules and made up his own so he wouldn't vote for Matsui. That's discrimination. While no voter will come out and say he voted for Matsui one or two positions lower than he would have if he wasn't from Japan, I think it's clear that it happened based on the debate that was going on at the time. Just read the article you linked to. That's the entire focus of the article. It would be pretty surprising, based on the dialouge, that Matsui didn't lose a few points because he was from Japan, and considering it was the closest ROY vote in twenty years, then I say that did cost him the award.
What's interesting is that the BBWAA got it right. Berrora was the more valuable player, yet they got it right for all the wrong reasons. Based on past voting, a rookie driving in 100 RBIs is going to win the award, unless he's up against some hitter with even more outwordly statistics, such as Fred Lynn beating Jim Rice. At worst, the vote was tinged with xenophobia; at best, enough BBWAA members decided to change the rules because they were concerned that Japanese players were going to dominate the ROY voting in coming years. I really can't distinguish between either position.
Yes, most of this is my opinion, but I am more comfortable with it. It's hardly outlandish; it can be seen right in that very article you sent.
July 22nd, 2011 at 11:45 pm
@55, Andy -- I'm not sure I believe you. I think you wanted the reaction. : -)
July 23rd, 2011 at 3:30 am
@ Duke
I think you interpreted that "60 Minutes" story on football in America Samoa wrong. They raised questions about why Samoans are so well-represented in college football and the NFL and even talked with people who postulated why that is true but in the end I think the viewer should have been left with the impression is that football is of unparalleled importance in American Samoa and the fervor over it there is the driving force, along with the relative hardships (like using equipment that the kids of American players would probably file suit over).
@ Twisto
MLB teams try to sign amateur Japanese players but I think the culture of what it means to be Japanese prevents an amateur player from taking any MLB offer too seriously.
July 23rd, 2011 at 7:41 am
@80,
I'm partial to the Cardinals, but I've lived most of my life in NYC so I'm very familiar with the Yankees and the Mets as well. And like many of us here, I'm sure I spend too much of my time looking at too many statistics of too many teams for my own good.
As I said before, I think we're all in agreement here that the writers got it right, probably (or certainly) for the wrong reasons. Ironically enough though, the xenophobic, anti-japanese position actually seems to elevate the quality of the Japanese leagues above the level at which the majority of those on this board, and in the baseball community in general, would place it; i.e. the closer to MLB you consider a foreign top-level league to be, the more it makes sense (in fairness to the rookies coming through the minor leagues) to put in a clause making veterans of those foreign leagues ineligible for the ROY award.
Unfortunately, most of these awards have somewhat arbitrary standards and many of the BBWAA members make up their own criteria. I feel like I have read somewhere that Keith Law of ESPN favors players he believes have a higher projection for future success in the ROY instead of just who has had the best season, unfortunately I don't have a source available right now and I'm not even sure he would be a voter for the award since he is a national writer and most of the awards are voted on by 2 local writers from each city in the appropriate league.
Given 2 more or less equal players, I would tend to favor the one that had the more unexpected (good) performance to the heavily hyped rookie (be he a foreign import or a Jason Heyward type). This might be making up my own rules for the award, but I don't have a vote. In all honesty, I don't know what the exact rules are and expect they are somewhat intentionally vague on the merit aspects. I think the eligibility aspects are pretty clear and the voters should follow them or lobby to have them changed if they don't think they fairly assess the state of the game.
July 23rd, 2011 at 8:10 am
The reason I think that Ichiro's 1278 hits can be added in is NOT because I believe the leagues to be equal or anywhere close to equal. And it is not because Pete Rose said it was okay.
I think they should count (at least in our heads) is because he has averaged more hits per game over here in the Majors. Not the same - MORE.
Factor in the shortened Japanese season (130-135 games) and it becomes clear that if he had played his entire career in the Majors (and remained healthy) he would have a LOT more hits than 3631 combined hits he has now. Remember that Ichiro's ONLY 200 hit season in Japan came in his first full season - when he was only 20 years old.
And he has played the majority of his career over here. We are not talking about a player who played 80 percent of his career in Japan. When he is finished, it will be close to the other way around.
So his extra 1278 hits came during a time when he was averaging LESS hits per game and playing about 30 less games a year.
And I guarentee that when he nears Rose's all time mark, Pete will be singing a different tune.
July 23rd, 2011 at 9:24 am
I basically had to repost some of my original information because SO many people respond with how inflated washed out MLB players become when they move to Japan, or how many star players in Japan become more mediocre (albeit serviceable) MLB players when they move over here.
But Ichiro's HIT numbers have increased significantly since his arrival. And it just so happens that the career hit record is one of the most prestigious stats in the games history.
Ichiro was averaging 172 hits a season in Japan
Ichiro is averaging 214 hits a season here.
It would be like if a player was averaging 35-40 home runs a season in Japan, and then came over here and averaged 43-50 home runs a season for 10+ straight years. If a player did that, then we would be taking a serious look at his combined numbers. That is how I feel about Ichiro's hit total.
July 23rd, 2011 at 1:06 pm
@ 83 Fireworks,
I respect your opinion, but if you want to say it is the Samoans' "unparalleled" devotion to football.
That simply is not true.
All you need is one Friday night in the South or Texas in a small town. Now that is unparalleled.
Entire towns, stores, churches, barbershops all shut down for HIGH-SCHOOL football. Stadiums that rival division II collegiate stadiums adorn high schools in Texas, where every citizen, of not just the town, but the county turns up.
It is here that kids who never make it to college, but had great high school careers or even had one amazing play, one moment of glory, are remembered years, decades later.
Nothing like that exists in American Samoa. Partialy because there was no Highschool football until several years ago.
I didn't want to touch on this before, but there is a well known theory with tons of academic studies and data to back it up pertaining to why certain ethnic groups suffer from certain diseases at three to four times the rate of others. Doctors could not simply explain this away by pointing to cultural diets or regional habits.
One such group was Pacific Islanders. They have one of the highest rates of obesity and diabetes in the world. But that was not always the case. It has only been a serious problem in the last 50 years.
Scientists postulated that the large distances between these islands (some 1000 Miles +) must have been near impossible to transverse in the open ocean in the canoes used by the pacific islanders thousands of years ago. But historians have found that before these near impossible trips, there would be large feasts that would last several weeks, where these intrepid explorers would gorge themselves at, in an attempt to put on as much fat as possible before a month or so on the open seas, where they would be relying on only random fishing and an odd bird, all while burning thousands of calories a day sailing and canoeing. Well the men and woman who survived these trips, were the ones who were able to put on the most fat during the feasting just before the famine of these trips. The ones who couldn't fatten up pre-voyage, usually died on route. So after years of island hopping, thousands of miles, populating the pacific rim, the people who could put on weight easiest and fastest, were the ones who survived and whose descendants we see today. While in a hunter gatherer society, putting on weight quickly is a positive, but in a modern urbanized city, the famine part of that equation no longer exists. There is a Macdonalds on nearly every island in the Pacific. So while a single meal is metabolized differently for this population, it is not always a negative. Someone who is extremely active, or even a cross training weight lifter would benefit from the glycemic spikes from big meals, translating the large caloric intake into muscle.
Hence the 30 plus American Samoans in the NFL.
It is the same concept that explains why nearly 50% of Japanese are lactose intolerant. Their ancestors did not have dairy.
July 24th, 2011 at 8:26 pm
http://research.sabr.org/journals/files/SABR-Baseball_Research_Journal-33.pdf
Starting on page 53 in the Journal above, you'll see a discussion about whether Sadaharu Oh should be in the HOF.
Sadahara Oh was quoted as saying he would have liked to play in the majors.
What I found interesting was that in 1967, the major league and Japanese owners signed a "Working Agreement" which governed their relationship. A key provision was that each side would respect the other's rights to players. At the time, both sets of owners had reserve clauses they used to keep players tied up indefinitely. In 1975, free agency became a part of the major league scene,
nevertheless,the majors' continued to honor the "Working Agreement." Free agency didn't come to Japanese baseball until 1993, and even then player agents were banned from the negotiating process. While it is true the loophole Nomo exploited in 1995 existed from the beginning of this agreement, it was a fine enough legal point that no one discovered for 28 years.
July 25th, 2011 at 6:41 pm
REPLY TO NEIL L. post #77 re: Greg Zahn's comments on sending guys down to the minors, and your response "sending down a player to tear up PCL pitching for a month and then recalling them serves no useful purpose..." IT SERVES THE TEAM'S PURPOSE by getting a non-productive guy out of the lineup. And many's the time a player has come back to The Show and acknowledged that going back to Triple A was the right thing to do, he regained his confidence, etc. A guy who can tear up PCL pitching is probably in a better position to stay in the majors than a guy who can tear up Japanese pitching. but there are exceptions like Tuffy Rhodes and Matt Murton. Oh, wait, they stayed in Japan. . . .
which brings me to...
REPLY TO THOMAS COURT posts 85-86. I noticed the same thing about Ichiro's stats when I looked through his Japanese league records and saw the short-season problem. That doesn't justify adding those stats to MLB numbers, it only illustrates how unfair the player contracts were over there, even after MLB established free agency. Ichiro was legally held hostage in Japan, but so were all the other players over there. If you make an exception for him, you gotta use the same "exception" for all the other players, and there is just no way Hideki Matsui should be in anybody's 500HR club yet. Except that the Japanese do combine stats for players going into their Hall of Fame. Except, that rule applies only to Japanese players. No Americans are allowed into their HOF.
If you want to deal with xenophobia in baseball, you need to start in Japan, not the USA or MLB or our sportswriters.