Yankees trying to acquire Cliff Lee
Posted by Andy on July 9, 2010
You've probably heard by now that the Yankees are allegedly close to a trade for Cliff Lee.
I have a few random thoughts on this:
- Why are the Yankees trying to make this deal when they have apparently passed on a lot of stud pitchers in similar circumstances in recent years? (The list includes Roy Halladay, C. C. Sabathia, Johan Santana, Jake Peavy, and Lee himself last year.)
- The Yankees are set to face Lee tonight in Seattle. Are they trying to acquire him to improve their chances to win this game by forcing the Mariners to bring in a spot starter? (tongue-in-cheek on this one folks)
- I heard one report that the Yankees are negotiating a long-term deal with Lee as part of the trade. I have my doubts the report is accurate since I think long-term deals are usually negotiated in a window after the basic trade has been approved. Anyway, though, how weird is it to be negotiating with a guy you're about to face?
- How weird is it for an All-Star pitcher to get traded just before the All-Star game? He went in as a member of the Mariners but could be a Yankee by the time of the game.
- Should Lee get traded to the Yankees, that means they'd have 4 starting pitchers (along with Sabathia, Andy Pettitte, and Phil Hughes) on this year's All-Star team. Wacky.
July 9th, 2010 at 10:45 am
Has any team ever traded for a pitcher they were set to face within the next couple of days? It seems like an interesting strategy.
July 9th, 2010 at 10:52 am
I don't think any team would seriously do that...the Yankees aren't going to trade a prized prospect that they've spent years developing just so they don't have to face a particular pitcher.
This is somewhat related to the fact that division rivals rarely make trades. If the Red Sox or Yankees had a star pitcher near the end of his contract, you can bank on the fact that he's not getting traded to the other team. (For starters, neither team would probably trade him at all since they'd either sign him to a big extension or just use the money to buy the next big guy in free agency.)
July 9th, 2010 at 11:19 am
So if the trade does happen before the break, would he go as a Mariner or Yankee? And if the answer is the Yankees (which I guess makes more sense), if he had been Seattle's only All-Star (although they have Ichiro going, of course), would the league have had to put another Mariner on?
July 9th, 2010 at 11:22 am
Who knows...my guess is that MLB would delay approving the trade until after the break to avoid the issue.
Wouldn't it be weird to see Lee wearing an NYY cap at the A-S game??
July 9th, 2010 at 11:25 am
Montero is a phenomenal hitter but his catching abilities are questionable.
The Yankees say they are comitted to him as a catcher, but who knows what they think privately. If he can't catch, I don't know if he has anywhere else to play for them, with Teixeira at first, and Nick Swisher and Brett Gardner manning the outfield corners and under team-friendly contract situations.
If they don't think Montero can catch, trading him for Lee now saves the draft picks, and then lets trade Javier Vazquez.
July 9th, 2010 at 11:31 am
Mike,
Couldn't Montero be made into a career DH if he plays for an American League team. His catching abilities would be all for nought then
July 9th, 2010 at 11:59 am
Refusing to trade a star player within your division seems like a foolish strategy. For a team looking to build a team to compete in years that follow the contract years for the player (presumably why you are trading him), trading within your division offers you the chance to weaken a potential rival a couple of years down the road at the same time that you are strengthening your own team. Trading a younger player approaching free agency within your division when the acquiring team expects to resign the player as a consequence of the trade is, obviously, a different calculus.
July 9th, 2010 at 12:03 pm
Evan, I don't disagree with you, although there are a couple of other factors. Fan perception is a big one. How do you think Red Sox fans would like it if Boston traded, say Jon Lester, to the Yankees as he approached free-agency? Despite possible logical arguments for the move, such as your argument, the fans would revolt. Red Sox Nation would be pissed off. The team itself might be demoralized. And possibly missing the playoffs due to your own trade can hurt the team financially too, and make it harder to attract free agents going forward. I'm not saying these arguments invalidate yours--just that there are additional considerations.
July 9th, 2010 at 12:07 pm
What are the other pre-break trades of All-Stars in history?
The only one I can find using a hunt-and-peck method is Carl Everett 2003. Probably more than that.
July 9th, 2010 at 12:19 pm
Andy,
I don't think the Red Sox and Yankees of late fit the situation I am referring to. These two teams are looking to win each and every year and have the resources to do so. Most other teams need to go through cycles of better teams and worse teams in order to have the crests of those waves be good enough to compete on the highest levels (eg. Texas, Minnesota, Oakland, Detroit have all gone through up and down cycles the past 10-15 years) - otherwise, with the resources available, they can only maintain a level of mediocrity.
In the Lee situation, trading him within the AL West makes sense (assuming the team is offering comparable value to what other teams are offering) because he is in the final season and it is unlikely that the receiving team would be able to resign him before the season ended. I would contrast this with Oswalt who would be under the receiving team's control through 2012, by which time the Astros might have a chance to be competitive in the NL Central (although Drayton McLane seems to believe he can win the division every year until the point at which he is mathematically eliminated).
I find the fan perception thing as it relates to "I don't want our fans having look at this player for the next x years" type reasoning to be less important in this age of omnipresent highlights. On the other hand there are certain rivalries which are so bitter that it might be bad for business to be seen as helping the rival out in any manner whatsoever (e.g NYY/BOS, STL/CHC, SFG/LAD, NYM/Whichever team is doing well in the NL East in any given 2 year period and the Yankees).
July 9th, 2010 at 12:21 pm
DavidRF @9,
Carlos Beltran from KC to Houston in 2004 is the most notable I can think of.
July 9th, 2010 at 12:25 pm
Has there ever been a Cy Young Award winner to play for four teams over a two year period immediately following the year in which he won the award?
July 9th, 2010 at 12:27 pm
@DavidRF
Bartolo Colon?
July 9th, 2010 at 12:31 pm
Jim at #6,
I don't think the Yankees will carry a DH-only type of player because of the rest of their roster. In the short term, Jorge Posada is still around for 2011, and will need to DH at least a third of the time. Long term, A-Rod and Jeter are going to need some of off days in the DH spot.
If Montero was able to even catch 50% of the time and DH the rest, I think they'd keep him.
July 9th, 2010 at 12:33 pm
He won't get traded to NYY. They have a full rotation with nowhere to put him since Vazquez seems to be coming along. If they trade Lee to NYY it wouldn't be for a catching prospect. It'd be for SS/3B prospect and I don't know how deep NYY is in that category. So if anything Lee will be going somewhere else
July 9th, 2010 at 12:34 pm
The first time Jeff Shaw wore a Dodgers Uniform (after the trade from the Reds) was during the 1998 All-Star game. I remember seeing him announced in pregame and thinking "when did he get traded?". But apparently (looking at his game logs/transactions) his last game with the Reds was 07/03/1998, he was traded to the Dodgers 07/04/1998, he was at the All-Star game (Dodger uniform) 07/07/1998, and made his "debut" with the Dodgers on 07/10/1998.
So there has been a precedent set for Cliff Lee to wear a Yankee (or whatever team) uniform if he is traded prior to the ASG.
July 9th, 2010 at 12:45 pm
If this goes through, don't be surprised to see the Yankees put Hughes back in the pen for the rest of this year. Other than Mo and Marte, the pen has been abysmal. Robertson, Joba, and Park have been crazy inconsistent (Park just plain awful), they have no innings eaters like Aceves or Coke, and they need to solidify that pen for any run through the division and WS. Hughes is also on an inning limit of ~170 innings and he's already at around 100. If he comes out the pen the rest of the year he'd be able to get close to 140-150 innings(including playoffs) and next year they wouldn't have to worry about the limit. Vazquez's contract is up at the end of the year and Lee (Lee's is up too) would be insurance in case Pettitte decides to retire.
July 9th, 2010 at 12:48 pm
Instead of moving Hughes to the pen they could also use Vazquez to get some bullpen help and leave Hughes in rotation.
July 9th, 2010 at 12:52 pm
I don't think it really matters where he gets traded...at the end of the year I think he will be joining Wade, Bosh, and James in Miami...
July 9th, 2010 at 12:56 pm
Booyah Bryan, I was waiting for the first Lebron reference.
July 9th, 2010 at 1:01 pm
Neither Carl Everett or Bartolo Colon were actually traded during the break. Colon didn't even make an all star team that year, presumably because he had played only two games in the NL at the time of the break. Everett on the other hand was traded at the end of June/beginning of July (I only looked at game logs not the actual trade date... sorry) and the All Star game was July 15th. He was an all star that year though...
July 9th, 2010 at 1:01 pm
Although it should be pointed out Everett was traded from an AL team to another AL team.
July 9th, 2010 at 1:39 pm
They may ship Vazquez somewhere. Rumors have been to send him to Philly for Werth, since it seems like the Phillies are looking to cut ties with him after the affair rumors and the recent fan incident.
July 9th, 2010 at 1:42 pm
Oh and the fact that Werth's contract is up at the end up this year.
July 9th, 2010 at 1:47 pm
The events were a bit further apart, but the player was a lot more significant than most mentioned here...Tom Seaver was traded by the Mets to Cincinnati on June 15, 1977, and as a Mets fan, it was really weird seeing him pitch in a Reds uniform in the all-star game 34 days later on July 19, IN NEW YORK at Yankee Stadium...
July 9th, 2010 at 1:50 pm
If Lee knew he was going to the Yanks before the game, what's to stop him from pitching good enough to lose against them? His new team is in a tight pennant race and needs all the Ws they can get. The Ms are buried in last and another W wouldn't mean anything to them. It's an interesting concept. If in fact he stunk against the Yanks and the trade went through, what would Bud do? What could he do?
July 9th, 2010 at 1:52 pm
Interesting conspiracy idea there, Larry. This situation is all-around weird.
July 9th, 2010 at 2:00 pm
I wonder why the Mariners would trade Lee for Werth (and of course a few prospects) unless they could guarantee a resign. Werth is a rental and he would be great trade bait for a team trying to make the playoffs but the mariners are practically surrendering their season by trading Lee, so it really doesn't make much sense.
July 9th, 2010 at 2:37 pm
I don't think there's any chance Lee is getting traded for Werth....
July 9th, 2010 at 2:39 pm
Definitely not. You trade a guy like Lee, you are conceding the season, and in that case you'd never trade for another guy who will be a free agent. You'd only trade for one or more players who will be under your control into the future.
July 9th, 2010 at 2:43 pm
Larry R, it appears that you know little about how trades work...if Lee knows he's going to the Yankees before tonight's game, it means the trade has been made and he'd probably pitch for the Yankees, but he certainly wouldn't pitch for the Mariners...if he starts for the Mariners, it means the trade has not yet been completed...if the teams agree to the trade during the game, say, in the bottom of the 3rd inning, he would then become property of the Yankees, and the Mariners would be forced to pull him from the game immediately and send out a reliever for the top of the 4th...A PLAYER NEVER PLAYS FOR ONE TEAM IF HE KNOWS HE'S BEEN TRADED TO ANOTHER because of the risk of injury and conflict of interest...
July 9th, 2010 at 2:47 pm
Stu, in Larry's defense, I think he meant if Lee has a strong suspicion he's being traded to the Yankees, or if the trade is in process but hasn't gone through yet, in which case Lee could choose to make the risky move of tanking the game. Very unlikely of course. More likely that if the trade were in process, the Mariners would hold him out of the game anyway for fear of injury and trade cancellation.
July 9th, 2010 at 3:01 pm
Imagine the debacle if Lee gets traded to a National League team before the all star game. Would he then play under his new National League team on the National League all stars? Probably not. But the real debacle would be how he would pitch for the AL All stars when he wants the NL team to win (So his new team could have home field in the WS, should they make it that far). In the past this would be nothing more than an amusing tribulation, but now that the all star game means something...
Bud Selig is a four letter word
July 9th, 2010 at 3:04 pm
There is a ton of stuff about the potential deal in Seattle, including the report the the M's nixed contract-entension talks early-on.
Supposedly, there would be a "gentlemen's agreement" that the Yanks would not then go and toss Lee against the M's this weekend. This would result in a long weekend off for Lee.
Since Lee would make no starts for New York during this time, maybe there is also an unspoken "gentlemen's agreement" that the trade particulars are agreed-upon (barring injury, of course), but that Lee will remain a Mariner through the break.
It may not be strictly kosher, as far as trade proceedures are concerned, but it also allows the M's to retain some shred of dignity.
Curiously, I have seen nothing, either in the local paper or the M's site, about a press conference being scheduled.
July 9th, 2010 at 3:07 pm
Excellent point, Jim, about pitching for the AL when going to an NL team...that would also be insane.
July 9th, 2010 at 3:14 pm
I suspect that a lot of this "story" about Lee going to the Yankees has been generated by the Mariners and Seattle media to create greater sense of urgency and drive the price up among the numerous teams in the bidding - just as they were the first to say several weeks ago that the Yankees were in hot pursuit when no talks had taken place...
July 9th, 2010 at 3:21 pm
See what I mean? This just appeared on rotoworld.com...
Joel Sherman of the New York Post reports that the "Mariners are backing off" the Yankees' offer for Cliff Lee and that it doesn't look like the "Yankees are in it."
Shocking if true, since it seemed like a done deal all afternoon. The Mariners were believed to be receiving Jesus Montero, David Adams and Zach McAllister for Lee. Sherman says the Mariners were concerned about Adams' ankle and that another team has stepped up with a big offer.
@Jim: A situation similar to what you describe happened just a few years ago, when a player who had been elected to start for one league was traded and played in the all star game for the other league. Do any of you guys remember the circumstances?
July 9th, 2010 at 3:25 pm
And a few hours ago, this Joel Sherman tidbit on rotoworld.com...
Joel Sherman of the New York Post reports that the Mets will now "turn strongly" to acquiring Ted Lilly from the Cubs.
According to Sherman, the Astros still want too much in return for Roy Oswalt and will pay too little of his remaining contract. Lilly, 34, will be a free agent after the 2010 season, so he would strictly be a rental. The Mets won't be alone in their interest.
July 9th, 2010 at 3:49 pm
Jack Z may be trying to work a larger deal, with multiple clubs, like the beauty that got the M's Franklin Gutierrez and Jason Vargas.
July 9th, 2010 at 3:50 pm
@28-30
The Werth rumor involves the Yankees and Vazquez, not the Mariners and Lee. It would be to make room for Lee in the starting rotation.
I'm not sure where they make room for Werth though. The DH seems to be heavily occupied with rotating players, LF has a player Sean just wrote is a top-3 guy based upon WAR, RF has an all-star who seems to be popular with the team and it is hard to imagine them removing Granderson from the mix. Looking at the Yankees' roster right now, it is hard to find places where it is easy to improve because there are very few available players that are better than the player that the Yankees currently have at that position. The one exception is bullpen.
July 9th, 2010 at 4:48 pm
That may not matter to the Yankees, Evan...they have a history of shoving one good player aside when they pick up another...remember when they had Sparky Lyle as their closer and signed Goose Gossage as a free agent in 1978? Or when they had Tino Martinez at 1B and signed Jason "Roid Man" Giambi as a free agent in 2002?
July 9th, 2010 at 4:51 pm
So much for the Yankees...from NBC Sports...
The Seattle Mariners reportedly have traded pitcher Cliff Lee to the Texas Rangers.
The New York Post reported that Seattle will send Lee and reliever Mark Lowe to Texas in exchange for first baseman Justin Smoak, pitchers Blake Beavan and Josh Lueke and second baseman Matt Lawson.
ESPN reported that Seattle is kicking in $2.5 million in order to help offset the $4 million in salary owed to Lee. In return, Texas gave a better package of prospects.
July 9th, 2010 at 5:26 pm
Stu B,
This point is probably moot at this point, since Lee seems to be going to Texas, but where were you suggesting that the Yankees play Werth? I don't think replacing Gardner or Swisher constitutes an improvement considering the respective performances this year. If you are suggesting that they move Gardner to CF, put Werth in a corner and push Granderson out, then I can see Werth being an improvement, but not a dramatic improvement. It has potential downsides defensively and in terms of the long term plans the Yankees likely have with Granderson.
Making major changes in the offseason is different than doing so midseason. Also, though Martinez wasn't washed up, Giambi was seemingly a dramatic upgrade - coming off his MVP 2000 season and a 2001 where he probably should have won it but finished behind Ichiro, in large part because Seattle won 116 games. As for Gossage/Lyle, I was about 8 months old when that signing took place, so I don't actually remember it - but I'm not sure it has much bearing on how current personnel decision will be made.
July 9th, 2010 at 5:41 pm
bahahah Yankees got played
July 9th, 2010 at 6:07 pm
I don't think so. As per my first bullet point above such a move would be highly out of character especially given the strength of their rotation. Bullpen is a MUCH bigger need. I suspect they were involved only to drive up the cost for someone else, or weren't actually involved at all and Seattle used them as a decoy. In either event, they get that spot starter tonight against the Mariners. Yanks come out ahead on this one, it would seem.
July 9th, 2010 at 6:10 pm
Darn it, looks like Lee's going to the Rangers. I was really hoping the Yankees would get him. Baseball desperately needs more competitive imbalance.
July 9th, 2010 at 6:59 pm
Wow the Rangers are going for it. I think they could be good enough to win the West now but they still only have one great SP so not sure they will go far in the postseason.
July 9th, 2010 at 7:43 pm
I think this is a much bigger deal for Texas the many people realize. Lee has shown many times that he can dominate ANY team, and the way the playoffs are set up with off days, he could be a one-man wrecking crew. I realize that he can't win the WS all by himself, but putting a player of his caliber on the front-lines has to increase their chances dramatically. I personally am indifferent to Texas as a team but seeing that my Cubs will be watching the playoffs in the comfort of their own homes, it would be nice to see a team like Texas make a run for it.
*On a partially unrelated note, wouldn't it be nice to see some Game7's (or 5's in DS) for a change.
July 9th, 2010 at 11:42 pm
@44 I think you are misinterpreting the Yankees offer.
They saw Lee was available, made an offer that they wouldn't budge from, and Texas came in and made a better one. It has nothing to do with being played.
Especially since the Yankees will be the odds-on favorite to land Lee when it only costs teams money and maybe a draft pick.
July 10th, 2010 at 2:29 pm
Post #46 says, "[L]ooks like Lee's going to the Rangers."
So Lee is going to New York, but to play hockey instead of baseball!
(Sorry, I couldn't resist posting this.)