Comments on: Most Cheap Wins Since 1920

By: rob

rob — Wed, 24 Nov 2010 13:06:17 +0000

This does not take into account guys "pitching to the game situation". Suppose the score is 8-2 in the 5th inning. Don Sutton knows that the Braves can only get back into the game if he walks a bunch of people. So he doesn't pitch Dale Murphy as carefully as he usually would. He takes a feast of famine approach when Murphy comes to the plate. He puts the ball over the heart of the plate. He's hoping for a strikeout, willing to put up with a solo homerun but absolutely isn't going to give any free passes. Murphy homers that inning. Rafael Rameriz homers under similar circumstances in the 7th and Sutton leaves. The Dodgers win 8-4 and Sutton gets a "cheap" win.

By: Lefty

Lefty — Wed, 17 Nov 2010 05:42:01 +0000

This only as meaningful as game score, so not much. If you check the formula, you are deducting 4 points for an earned run and 2 points for an unearned run....which presumes the ratio is in correct proportion to the pitchers responsibility. Why would it be? You get a point for a strikeout. Why is a strikeout better than a groundout? It's a silly formula.

Also, this is a list of guys who pretty much all pitched a lot of games. No big surprise that someone like Greg Maddux won 42 games out of hundreds he started with some luck and big run support to get a win. He probably had 50 or more losses in games where his ERA would average out to under 2.00.

By: William

William — Tue, 16 Nov 2010 04:29:01 +0000

Whoops. He is there....with 26. But that's 75th on this list and way less than Morris. Okay, I feel stupid.

By: William

William — Tue, 16 Nov 2010 04:27:09 +0000

Another reason Blyleven should be in the Hall of Fame. He isn't on the list. Morris is near the top.

By: Mike Felber

Mike Felber — Tue, 16 Nov 2010 03:54:36 +0000

James was sincere in what he wrote, to my knowledge. But his metrics are commonly misused. Like HOF Standard & HOF Monitor. These measures are for what is commonly HOF material or likelihood of election. They are not supposed to consider how worthy a guy is, what his adjusted #s are, & which stats are meaningful.

Similarly, it would be helpful if all of these articles considered context. Like reporting who is the best at something...adjusted for their context. Post %s, or total chances. NOT just the raw lists. Just counting up what a guy did in any environment or any length career says little.

Just like wins & losses say little in discerning how good or bad a pitcher is. i do not believe Mr. Jonsson remotely meant to defend them by critiquing the use of games score. Wins are historically & still overrated. Not the opposite. Yes, you have to look at more #s to determine quality for exactingly. And wins have SOME correlation to good pitching, because good pitching helps win.

But wins vary massively by era, runs support, IP, what is done after you leave a game/how a potential save goes, etc...Wins are worse than simple stats like ERA+, even ERA, WHIP, WAR, tons of advanced total stats like adjusted pitching wins & runs. We cannot just average traditional & more scientific stats & say that they all have equal, or even similar use, in determining value.

As almost all here understand.

Separately, my Avatar must be the king of tough losses. Only Cy Young, due to dwarfing everyone in IP, could certainly exceed him.

By: Chuck

Chuck — Tue, 16 Nov 2010 02:24:17 +0000

I don't think anybody really needed to search, Zachary. "Bill James never meant game scores to be a serious metric." Bill James didn't intend anything he did to be taken seriously.

By: Zachary

Zachary — Tue, 16 Nov 2010 01:06:22 +0000

Anybody who says they didn't immediately search for the names "Morris" and "Blyleven" is clearly lying.

By: kenh

kenh — Mon, 15 Nov 2010 23:29:22 +0000

Largebill: I wasn't inferring that these guys had a magical ability. They just know how to pitch through not having their best stuff. sometimes that results in a win, sometimes not. In addition to great skill, the guys on this list have durability which may be the first thing you want out of a pitcher. It saves the bullpen and keeps a manager's hair its natural color.

By: John Autin

John Autin — Mon, 15 Nov 2010 18:36:13 +0000

@24 -- In terms of average Game Score, the higher scoring and shorter outings of the modern era are at least partly offset by the K rate, which is at an all-time high.

By: M. Scott Eiland

M. Scott Eiland — Mon, 15 Nov 2010 17:28:17 +0000

Has anyone ever done a year by year comparison of average Game Scores for MLB? With starters throwing less innings per start on average than ever, combined with the high offense era that is now apparently just ending, I would expect them to be coming out of an all time low period.