Comments on: POLL: Lou Whitaker and the Hall of Fame This and that about baseball stats. Tue, 16 Jul 2013 17:01:55 +0000 hourly 1 By: John Mon, 08 Nov 2010 19:34:48 +0000 Lou Whitaker certainly belongs in the HoF, but he'll never be voted in. He had a negative reputation, both as a player and with writers, who found him to be aloof and unfriendly. He also has the stigma of having played for the Detroit Tigers, who are probably the least-respected team in MLB. The last Tigers player to get voted into the HoF was Hal Newhouser by the veteran's committee, and the last one who got voted in by writers was Al Kaline (way back in 1980). The Tigers were one of the most successful teams of the 1980's but they won't get a single player into the Hall out of those teams, or they will be old and gray when the vet committee finally vote them in.

By: dennis Fri, 05 Nov 2010 19:30:32 +0000 Andy, my apolgies.

Let me make my final comment about Dick Allen.

Mike Felber gave us int his thread a link to a Dicj Allen page. In the transcripot of an interview onthe front page of the site....Allen is quoted assaying that maybe he could have treated a writer differently or been nice to some people,but overall he was satisfied what he had done.

OK; if he is satisfied.

then why should the VC orr baseball fans lobby for him to enter the HOF? . why should any of us knock ourselves out for Dick Alllen?,


By: Andy Thu, 04 Nov 2010 14:22:00 +0000 Dennis, I appreciate the fact that you're making genuine arguments, but you just can't use that kind of language. (I am referring to a comment that has since been removed, and it wasn't removed by me.)

Please keep your word choice away from anything vulgar, and there's no reason to refer to body parts like that.

By: dennis Wed, 03 Nov 2010 22:43:18 +0000 OK, let me put the comment aobut the 9 inches in context because i realize it means nothign without some context...I wanted to say that a statistic pulled out of context means little.....A well endowed man isnt necessarily a good lover or attractive to woman.

And yes Dick Allen won 3 slugging titles two HR titles and had the 19th highest OPS plus average in the history of baseball.

And Dick Orr had a higher OPS plus, so how do you compare Allen to Orr? or Orr to any modern player....the contexts are totally different and so I don t think much of adjusted OPS as a stat..

I might think of Allen with as Ive said....Reggie Jackson Jm Rice
maybe Garry sheffield or Willie Stargell... But because they ar ein...and I didnt support Rice (I dont know what to think of sheffield, yet) but the others played longer............had some higher numbers and it doesnt man that Dick Allen gets a plaque.....

By: Mike Felber Wed, 03 Nov 2010 06:24:05 +0000 Really Dennis? Read what Mr. Sullivan said for a reality check. I like to debate. I am not personally upset, just taking strong & well delineated positions. I never have had ANY emotional angst due to "my guys" not being elected. Break down the word assume, a.k.a what doing it does.

You are free to disengage or not. I said I would answer you to set the record straight & support what I considered a rational argument. The threads we discuss these on were already old, so i cannot gauge lack of interest from others not jumping in-they may have already been off & on to other things. But I will bet a D.A. for the HOF thread attracts triple digit interest!

Your idea(l) about reinforcing an honor system re: 1 man 1 vote I wholeheartedly support.

You are a big HOF guy: Blyleven is a huge rhetorical cause I support, Santo sure...The others are more borderline to no for me. Case by case.

It should not make much difference that a guy happens to be on a team where he goes to the post season for an MVP, absent some unusual "clutch" play. Same goes for rookie MVP: though again, I do not think Allen was the very best in '64, just that a case could be made. The collapse? It was all of the player's fault whose performance lagged, over those limited # of games. You cannot avoid looking at individual players actions and assume blame is due all, or spread equally.

Lastly, I urge you to really listen to what I am saying, especially in a case like Ks & power hitters. Again: some players are too much free swingers or reckless with the count/strike zone. But 1) It is extremely hard to hit so well, let alone do so & strike out seldom. 2) Whether it is worth it to do other things like choke up for a power hitter is dubious-how much power & confidence will be lost? 3) It comes down to WHY a hitter Ks often, & if it is easily minimized with little bad secondary effects. Like so many things in life, the same things can be done-like K often-for distinct REASONS, & with different CONSEQUENCES if the strategy is changed.

Ks are just not that much worse, in any worthwhile strategic measure, than other outs. Note I did not say meaningless. And many who K often have more fly balls/sacs/less GIDP.

Lastly: are you aware that Allen was more of a "line drive" HR man? And that renowned baseball Historian Bill Jenkinson said he lost less power than anyone else (of the top power guys) going to the opposite field! While being in the top 5 EVER in pure power. You assume too much absent evidence re: how bad ks are, + assume unwarranted negatives about his plate approach, discipline & overall effort.

By: Michael E Sullivan Tue, 02 Nov 2010 16:58:24 +0000 "Mike, I dont want to rain on your parade...but no one besides us and maybe one more poster is too involved in Dick allen yes or no...And I tried to saddle up and disengage once."

the right way to disengage from an argument is to stop posting. nothing else actually works.

Saying the other guy is taking things way too seriously looks a little silly when you are spending just as many pixels on the argument as he is.

By: dennis Mon, 01 Nov 2010 23:07:50 +0000 OK, Im in favor a Dick Allen Hall of Fame poll...but we re all on our honor that we can only vote once!!!!

Mike, I dont want to rain on your parade...but no one besides us and maybe one more poster is too involved in Dick allen yes or no...And I tried to saddle up and disengage once.

Basic rule of thumb of voting for Rookies as MVP...their team should win he pennant or a conference title. See Fred Lynn, Ichiro Suzuki You claimed that it wasnt Allen s fault that the Phillies collapsed in 64. Well, whose fa<ult was it? Mauch because he pitchedf Bunning and Short with short rest? Allen shares in the responsibuility, he played every 64

Lots of playeras are rejected for the are passionate about Allen, i feel strongly about Santo and Blyleven and Tommy John and luis Tiant and Jim Kaat I dont think that Tony Oliva who was the ROY in the AL in 64 got the credit that he a matter of fact he got much more support then Allen did for the HOF balloting for 15 years and he s got some impressive black ink, but agreed he doesnt quite have the metrics that Allen did and he wasnt a strict power hitter. But if i had a choice between the two I owuld choose Oliva....

You say its quite rare for players to hit for power and not have a lot of Ks. A power hitter can choke up, protect the plate and gasp...maye go to the oppositve field ....He doesn t always have to try and pull the ball. And maybe is someof these yahoos who strike out 175 times a year....studied more video and were more defenive at the plate, they would cut down on their strikeouts. A strikeout is only a good AB if the hitter can work the pitcher into a high pitch AB, foul balls....

There is a big difference between you and I. I love baseball, like to discuss it, like to weigh in on Hallof Fame candidates...but I won t get too upset this year if my guys arent elected by the VC. This is a hobby for me, its not reality....and respectfully, I think you take this way to SERIOULSY!

By: Michael E Sullivan Mon, 01 Nov 2010 21:47:44 +0000 why not?

By: Mike Felber Mon, 01 Nov 2010 17:38:41 +0000 Sure. I also had suggested Reggie Smith, who I feel is borderline.

By: Andy Mon, 01 Nov 2010 11:04:49 +0000 Who wants a Dick Allen HOF poll?