Comments on: Mo Quality Pitching.

By: kevray85

kevray85 — Wed, 14 May 2008 04:57:13 +0000

Rivera's streak was broken this evening in his second inning of work in an 11 inning game. I suppose he still has a streak going of not allowing more than one baserunner in his first inning of work of 15 appearances. I imagine this would be a difficult, if not impossible thing to compare with other similar streaks. Also, it should be noted that this was not a save opportunity, so he also has a phenomenal streak of effectiveness in save opportunities.

Point being, Mo got an L tonight, but he's still friggin good. A certain Hall of Famer, and probably the greatest reliever of all time.

By: David in Toledo

David in Toledo — Tue, 13 May 2008 17:32:21 +0000

Interesting analyses, mmayes and Johnny.

If career win shares were used as a rough indicator of reliever accomplishment, we have the hybrids: Eckersley 300ws and Smoltz 288ws (as of May 6). Well, Wilhelm (256ws, 52 starts) and Gossage (223 ws, 37 starts) weren't exclusively relievers, either.

And Fingers (188ws) and Sutter (168ws). By comparison, Mariano Rivera is at 188 (as of May 6). But then there's Lee Smith (198) to consider. . . . Obviously, win shares isn't a perfect yardstick, but if Mariano gets over 200 as exclusively a reliever, that gives him the presumption of Hall-qualified, IMO.

By: Johnny Twisto

Johnny Twisto — Mon, 12 May 2008 22:00:59 +0000

Tony Fossas was a lefty specialist facing just one guy much of the time, so his streak obviously isn't as impressive.

By: Johnny Twisto

Johnny Twisto — Mon, 12 May 2008 21:57:20 +0000

I think relievers historically have not been consistently excellent simply because they are not great pitchers. Most relievers have been failed starters. This is starting to change, in that relievers are now being developed in the minors and in college, but the usual reason they are made relievers is probably still the same: They don't have the repertoire of pitches to be effective starters. Relievers have something which can make them effective for a brief period, be it one great pitch, or a deceptive delivery, but eventually enough exposure will render them less able to fool hitters. Do most relievers throw "specialty" pitches, more than starters do? I don't think that is true. Who throws a screwball these days? Are splitters or sliders any more common among relievers than starters? Mariano Rivera has made a living with his cutter, not too far from a slider, and he hasn't burned out. (Not that one data point is evidence of much.)

By: mmayes

mmayes — Mon, 12 May 2008 15:22:04 +0000

I have no empirical statistics to back this up, but I wonder if relievers have a problem being consistently excellent because of the nature of what they do. Here are my unscientific hypotheses: 1. Relievers typically have to get by on a specialty pitch (screwball, splitter, etc.) that puts more stress on the elbow or shoulder than a fastball/changeup/curve ball. 2. The stress of throwing short bursts in pressure situations 3-5 days/week is greater on the arm than throwing 9 innings (well, 5 innings now) every 5 days. 3. Relievers will throw a greater percentage of pitches in "pressure" or "stress" situations and those situations put more stress on the shoulder and elbow than the typical early to mid-inning situation. About 10 years ago there was an interest in pitch counts to combat arm injuries. That has led to a generation of starting pitchers who can't go more than 6 innings (by and large) because they were taught in the minor leagues to not throw more than 100 pitches. My theory is that the problem is not the number of pitches, but the number or ratio of higher stress pitches, such as splitters, sliders and screwballs.

By: David in Toledo

David in Toledo — Sun, 11 May 2008 17:48:54 +0000

Whenever the subject of best relief performances comes up, I revisit the question of what should qualify a reliever for the Hall of Fame. When I go through these lists, I find a lot of pitchers who did something well for a short period of time but who are probably unknown -- certainly not potential immortals -- to many fans. Tony Fossas?

On these lists I find Dennis Eckersley, probably HofF John Smoltz, possible HofF'ers Trevor Hoffman, Billy Wagner, Lee Smith (possible depending on how they finish their careers or are seen [Smith] compared to others). Not many names whose great work lasted much longer than a streak. . . . So what -- if not effectiveness streaks -- qualifies a reliever for the Hall? What should Mariano have to measure up to?

By: Raphy

Raphy — Sun, 11 May 2008 15:03:13 +0000

Yes I did. I've corrected it. Thank you cheeseboy10000.

By: cheeseboy10000

cheeseboy10000 — Sun, 11 May 2008 14:16:55 +0000

... I think you mean his last appearance of 2007.