Comments on: Leading the League in Complete Games, Shutouts, and … Saves? This and that about baseball stats. Tue, 16 Jul 2013 17:01:55 +0000 hourly 1 By: kds Tue, 17 May 2011 22:02:34 +0000 I think there were 2 other ways in which pitcher usage differed between Grove's time and ours. There was no rotation in the way we think of it today, where we could pick many of the starters a month from now today. Doubleheaders, both scheduled and due to rainouts had a lot to do with this, as did train travel. Pitchers
were matched up by the quality of the opposition, and platoon factors. Grove made the most starts against Detroit, who won 3 pennants while Lefty was in the league, and second most against the Yanks, who won 9. If he could have been used like a post 1960 pitcher, he would have had more starts and wins, and almost all other stats would be better because he would be pitching more against the bad teams and less against the good ones.

By: Johnny Twisto Tue, 17 May 2011 18:02:38 +0000 I know there's been a lot written about Grove's usage patterns. I just can't remember the details. Hopefully someone knows or can find a link. I have a recollection that Grove was sort of moody and didn't want to pitch all the time. And also that he may not have pitched against the Yankees that much (don't know why).

By: Johnny Twisto Tue, 17 May 2011 17:58:33 +0000 Duke, that's not so. After the deadball era, pretty much no one started 40+ games in a season until the '60s. The leaders in Grove's time would have 35-38 starts. Grove usually had a few less, but was still near the top of the IP leaders due to all his relief work.

While those were very good A's teams, the other pitchers usually weren't overwhelming. Perhaps Mack felt it was often better to pull them after 7 innings or so and let Grove finish it out, rather than let them fall apart at the end. But....I see that those teams were usually near the top of the AL in CG. So, I'm not sure.

By: Dukeofflatbush Tue, 17 May 2011 15:54:52 +0000 @ John Autin

Grove seemed to have been kept in the bullpen, averaging only 30 starts a season from '30-'33, arguably his 4 best years. He made at least 10 bullpen appearances during that span.
His high GS during that span was only 32, this when many guys were in the mid-40s as a # 1 starter.
Do you have any info why Grove was used like this?

By: Lawrence Azrin Tue, 17 May 2011 13:42:44 +0000 @9/ "Dave Says: "Anybody can do this again as long as the rules are put back to 1910"

Dave, well... no. Up until the mid-1950s, what we call the "closer" role was often filled by the team's best starter (though for far fewer games). In the late 50s, rotations wstarted to be followed more strictly for the entire season (because of the increased reliability of air travel), and the best pitchers were only starters, with the exception of one/two emergency relief appearances a year.

Nowadays, a closer can become a starter (Derek Lowe), a starter can become a closer (Dennis Eckersley), but they change their roles between seasons; they don't do _both_ in the same season, with the rare exceptions of the sort John A. mentioned in #3. This was not the case before the late 50s. In a sense, a team's best pitcher (such as Walsh and Brown) was often both the "ace" and the "closer".

By: Nash Bruce Tue, 17 May 2011 09:14:01 +0000 @11, no worries, Vin Mazzaro, still has a spot, on the '11 Twins:(((.........<>

By: Zim Tue, 17 May 2011 05:56:00 +0000 co-tangent: Mazzaro was sent down after his "effort" tonight.

By: John Autin Tue, 17 May 2011 02:50:00 +0000 Tangent, continued:
All 9 Cleveland starters have at least 1 hit and 1 run scored, and 8 of them have at least 1 RBI. (But don't blame Carlos Santana -- he's walked 3 times.)

The last time all 9 starters got at least 1 hit, 1 run and 1 RBI was 2008-08-22, Cardinals beating Atlanta, 18-3. Yep -- an NL team, with the pitcher batting. Adam Wainwright pitched 6 innings and batted 5 times, collecting 3 hits.

By: John Autin Tue, 17 May 2011 02:43:20 +0000 Tangent alert:
I've heard of taking one for the team, but I've never seen anything like this:
In KC tonight, the Indians are pounding the bejabbers out of the Royals by 19-1 after 6 innings.

Fourteen runs allowed ... by one reliever?

With starter Kyle Davies leaving in the 1st with an injury, KC turned to erstwhile starter Vin Mazzaro in the 3rd. Mazzaro got through that inning cleanly, but allowed 10 runs in the 4th (9 of them with 2 out), and 4 more in the 5th. That's 14 runs, all earned, in 2.1 IP.

There has not been a 14-run relief outing in the majors since WWII. The last 12-run relief outing was in 1950. The last reliever to allow 11 runs (Mel Rojas, 1999) was released 2 weeks later.

By: Hartvig Mon, 16 May 2011 21:28:53 +0000 My bad. I was looking wins instead of shutouts. But it still applies: Kinder and Reynolds both lead the league in shutouts their respective seasons and in '34 Dean and Hubbell were 1st & 2nd respectively. In '36 they reversed places but finished 8th & 9th... but only 1 or 2 behind 7 guys tied for first.