Comments on: Steroids http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/1095 This and that about baseball stats. Tue, 16 Jul 2013 17:01:55 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.6 By: tomepp http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/1095/comment-page-1#comment-6074 Fri, 13 Feb 2009 21:16:58 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/sotd/?p=1095#comment-6074 One more thought…

Why make rules – like the banning of HGH or the banning of steroids prior to 2004 – that you can’t (or won’t) enforce? There are basically three or four ways people look at rules:

[1] The moral high road: “If it’s not allowed, that’s it, I won’t do it whether or not there’s any chance of my ever getting caught.” We’d like to believe that most our sports heroes fall into this category, but last I checked Jesus Christ, Mahatma Gandhi, and Mohammed were not drafted (or paid) by the Yankees or Red Sox. Pro athletes are subject to the same frailties as the rest of us and are more likely to fall into one of the following categories.

[2a] Temptation: “I know that it’s not allowed, but the rewards outweigh the risks and costs.” When the rewards include greater levels of fame and adulation and potentially multi-million dollar contracts (and even the minimum salary is many times what most of these guys could make outside of sports), there is no risk of getting caught, and the cost is ‘only’ a guilty conscience; it is difficult for any mere human to resist that temptation.

[2b] Indifference: “I know it’s not allowed, but I don’t care. I’m going to cheat in any way I think I can get away with.” Of course, when there is ZERO risk of getting caught, this attitude is essentially the same as #3, below.

[3] Rationalization: “It’s only illegal if you get caught.” A surprisingly large number of athletes – both pro and amateur – take this perspective. They truly believe that it is not wrong to break the rules – it is only wrong to get caught. With this view, an unenforceable rule is not a rule at all. For these guys, you might as well erase it from the books.

A rule that is easy to enforce and almost impossible not to get caught at when breaking – like, for example, banning players from throwing a baseball bat at the pitcher – makes for a level playing field. Everyone will follow the rule or pay the penalty. If the penalty is severe enough to outweigh the reward, no one will break the rule. With rules that are more difficult to enforce you will start seeing players in categories #2 and #3 trying to get away with it. The greater the reward and/or the smaller the risk, the more players will attempt to break the rule. But when you make a rule that is completely unenforceable, only players in category #1 will even attempt to follow the rule. Instead of rewarding players who follow the rules by penalizing those who break them (at least, those who get caught), you are instead penalizing players who follow the rule by not giving them the competitive advantage enjoyed by those ignoring the rule.

In the case of steroids, if everyone’s taking HGH except Skeeter Honestball (and of course, not getting caught or penalized for breaking the rule), then poor Skeeter has a competitive disadvantage. What’s the message we’re sending with that?

]]>
By: tomepp http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/1095/comment-page-1#comment-6071 Fri, 13 Feb 2009 20:34:35 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/sotd/?p=1095#comment-6071 Very insightful, Johnny Twisto. Here are two other idiosyncrasies to ponder:

[1] Why is the use of some chemicals (e.g. steroids) wrong, but the use of others (e.g. “diet supplements” and vitamins) acceptable and legal? It is my understanding that neither one will enhance your athletic performance by itself – you still have to work out and put in the time in the gym/weight room – but the goal of using either one is to give you a body more capable of doing your job as a professional athlete. While they may have different long-term consequences, isn’t our society based on the principle that individual ADULTS are free to choose what risks they wish to take and weigh the risk-reward equation for themselves?

[2] Why is it wrong for an athlete to alter his body through chemistry, but altering through weight training, diet, or surgery is okay? A few years back, Greg Maddux had Lasik surgery to correct his vision. I’ll bet seeing the strike zone clearer does wonders for one’s ability to throw strikes consistently. True, there are benefits in life-outside-of-baseball to having better vision, but there are benefits in life-outside-of-baseball to being physically stronger, as well.

Again, I am not an advocate of the use of steroids in any pro sport; I just wonder why it is given such a disproportionate reaction – especially in baseball.

]]>
By: JohnnyTwisto http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/1095/comment-page-1#comment-6058 Thu, 12 Feb 2009 06:52:38 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/sotd/?p=1095#comment-6058 "any plain Joe can go buy steroids and become a muscle-bound homerun hitter"

Obviously that's completely untrue.

"make yourself into a great player through hard work"
"I value seeing a player preform to the best of his natural ability."

What is "natural" ability? That seems at odds with "hard work." We often hear about players with so much "natural ability" who didn't work hard enough to become great players. Does lifting weights push one beyond one's natural ability?

"Why is it wrong for McGwire and Bonds to use drugs to perform and we don’t complain when rock musicians or comedians do it? "

Because art isn't inherently competition. (I'm not saying that it's "wrong" for athletes to do it, but that's why the comparison fails.)

]]>
By: apreziosi http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/1095/comment-page-1#comment-6052 Wed, 11 Feb 2009 20:56:18 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/sotd/?p=1095#comment-6052 I'm not sure what baseball wants, and maybe they don't either. I appreciate the history of the game, but I can't be any more serious about it than I am about the latest Dustin Hoffman film or Lewis Black CD.

Maybe Selig wants a juiced-up home run derby? It's certainly a big part of All-Star week. After all, there aren't any Strike-throwing competitions or baserunning exhibitions, so maybe that's it?
Home runs are overrated in my opinion anyway. It's all about run production, regardless of how they're produced. Grand Slams are rally killers. I'll take 4 straight doubles and really put some heat on the defense.
Now I'm off track. 🙂

]]>
By: wrobelmj http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/1095/comment-page-1#comment-6051 Wed, 11 Feb 2009 19:02:05 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/sotd/?p=1095#comment-6051 I see where you are coming from with this argument, but they are two different situations. We appreciate comedians and artists for their finished product and the value that gives to us, either making us laugh or the beauty of their art. But we don't value baseball players, or at least I don't, for their ability to pump themselves full of steroids and smash a ball out of the park. I value seeing a player preform to the best of his natural ability. I guess my problem is that I wouldn't value baseball if it just became a homerun derby with a boat load of juiced up batters. To prevent this situation from arising I prefer no steroids in the game, but if baseball wants to become a 9 inning homerun derby then I'll just watch more football or soccer instead.

]]>
By: apreziosi http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/1095/comment-page-1#comment-6049 Wed, 11 Feb 2009 18:13:01 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/sotd/?p=1095#comment-6049 wrobelmj: So, using that argument, Hemmingway should have written sober and Jimi Hendrix should have tried to write and perform music without drugs. Baseball is an entertainment medium (as are all sports) but we hold it in some religion-like esteem that we don't hold other entertainment medium to. Why?
Why is it wrong for McGwire and Bonds to use drugs to perform and we don't complain when rock musicians or comedians do it? We might criticize them but we don't withhold Grammy awards or keep them out of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Did Richard Pryor and Robin Willams make you laugh? Sure they did.

Get a grip on the element of baseball that Ken Burns and his ilk would have us believe is somehow above the level of the rest of society.
It's just baseball. Have a beer and enjoy the game.

]]>
By: wrobelmj http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/1095/comment-page-1#comment-6048 Wed, 11 Feb 2009 17:25:33 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/sotd/?p=1095#comment-6048 It seems I'm late to this whole steroid debate, but one thing stood out to me among all the arguments. Many times it has been said that guys like Frank Thomas or Greg Maddux, or other players who are believed to be clean, are held in high regard and are believed to be HOFers. I agree with this statement entirely, but if we did find out Thomas was on steroids, or Maddux god forbid, then they should be looked down upon. Why did fans love McGwire, Sosa and Bonds? They hit a lot of homers and it was believed that they were the pinnacle of human strength and accomplishment by "naturally" achieving in baseball. But then it was discovered that they most likely took steroids. I know this isn't entirely true, but it proves a point: any plain Joe can go buy steroids and become a muscle-bound homerun hitter, and that's not what we value in a player. We don't want to go watch a bunch of players compete to see who can take the most PEDs without dying and then slam a bunch of dingers. We want to see players like Maddux and Henderson who adapt their game as necessary to do the best with their natural abilities. I completely feel that players who take steroids should be looked down upon, because in the end the point isn't to just rack up the homers and RBIs, its to make yourself into a great player through hard work.

]]>
By: apreziosi http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/1095/comment-page-1#comment-6046 Wed, 11 Feb 2009 13:16:04 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/sotd/?p=1095#comment-6046 jgeller: I don't know of a limit to Hall inductees. It isn't like football, where there are a set number inducted each year.
If a player retires with a group of icons, why not put them all in? I think the bigger issue is the Chamber of Commerce in Cooperstown. They need at least one inductee or else the weekend is a washout financially. The town depends on that July induction weekend for a big part of their revenue - hotels, tourism, etc. I'm sure there is a lot of pressure to get someone of note in the Hall to bring people in for the ceremony.

I'm convinced that's why Gossage got in after years of waiting. They had to put someone in, and in a weak class, his was the most likely name. If he's on the ballot with Rice and Henderson or prior years with Ripken and Gwynn, he's still waiting. It's a flawed system.

]]>
By: TheGoof http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/1095/comment-page-1#comment-6040 Wed, 11 Feb 2009 00:31:36 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/sotd/?p=1095#comment-6040 Thanks, Jgeller. I make that point all the time when I hear this nonsense about it "not being illegal in baseball" to do steroids prior to the punishments: if something is illegal in the country, it doesn't matter if it isn't addressed within the baseball rulebook. Do we really have to list felonies in the rulebook for them to be considered illegal in baseball?

]]>
By: Jgeller http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/1095/comment-page-1#comment-6039 Wed, 11 Feb 2009 00:13:36 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/sotd/?p=1095#comment-6039 apreziosi, you're right that there are some issues with the First Ballot Hall of Famer setup. Somebody is or isn't. But the first 5 years are really important to have. If somebody retires the same year as a group of icons, that person has no chance of getting in. Also, a player's career becomes more special the more you wait after it. It gives people to look back at it with more fondness.

On another note. I've heard people say that Steroids weren't considered bad before 2004 when punishments were handed out. That's not true. They were illegal since 1991. They just didn't have a punishment. It's like my 9th grade Spanish class. Cheating is wrong. But everybody except me in the class cheated and the teacher allowed it. What did I get? B's while everybody else got A's.

Finally, Palmeiro was suspended for steroid use in the first set of steroid testing with punishments. About 5 months after he testified before Congress saying he never took any. Several months later, he was out of baseball and not even a Viagra joke anymore.

]]>