Comments on: Bloops: The Hall of (Peak-Weighted) WAR This and that about baseball stats. Tue, 16 Jul 2013 17:01:55 +0000 hourly 1 By: Adam Darowski Mon, 28 Mar 2011 16:25:36 +0000 Hey guys... I posted the first of what could be a few questions about adjustments up at Beyond the Box Score. Would love to see what you guys think about this one (counting pitchers' hitting value and position players' pitching value).

By: Dr. Doom Tue, 22 Mar 2011 22:49:49 +0000 Adam, thanks so much for sharing, and thanks a bunch for staying a part of the discussion here. It was great to have you!

By: John Q Tue, 22 Mar 2011 22:45:33 +0000 Wow, Jeff Bagwell! That must have been a freudian slip because I kind of forgot he wasn't elected last year. Probably in my sub-conscience I assumed he was elected on the first try.

I left off the 19th century pitchers on purpose because that can be kind of tricky and I'm not really qualified to pass judgement on the validity of their candidacy.

I should have remembered Rose & Jackson but I think that was another freudian sub-conscience slip.

Bobby Grich is a big miss by me because I've been a big proponent of his HOF candidacy for years.

I never heard of Bill Dahlen before I started reading about Win Shares & WAR and so forth but he was an odd omission by the HOF in my opinion. When he retired in 1911 he was 11th all time in career hits. As late as 1990 he was ranked 7th all time in hits by a short stop. The stats say overhelmingly that he was a great fielding short stop so I don't really understand why he was so underrated. Maybe his .272 batting average had something to do with that.

By: Adam Darowski Tue, 22 Mar 2011 20:31:42 +0000 You missed an important one. 🙂 Jeff Bagwell at #1.

I have:

Jeff Bagwell 1B 79.9 38.7 9.7 128.3
Jim McCormick P 64.7 36.9 18.3 119.9
Silver King P 53.8 36.2 24.2 114.2
Charlie Buffinton P 56.1 36.5 20.5 113.1
Ron Santo 3B 66.4 33.7 10.1 110.2
Pete Rose LF 75.3 30.2 4.4 109.9
Joe Jackson LF 62.9 34.0 11.5 108.4
Bill Dahlen SS 75.9 25.1 2.4 103.4
Dick Allen 1B 61.2 28.8 8.2 98.2
Edgar Martinez DH 67.2 28.6 2.3 98.1
Alan Trammell SS 66.9 26.1 3.8 96.8
Bobby Grich 2B 67.6 26.4 2.7 96.7
Barry Larkin SS 68.9 25.7 1.6 96.2
Larry Walker RF 67.3 23.3 4.4 95.0
Jim Wynn CF 59.8 28.3 6.8 94.9
Kevin Brown P 64.8 25.1 4.8 94.7
Sal Bando 3B 60.6 27.2 4.7 92.5
Rick Reuschel P 66.3 22.5 2.7 91.5
Mark McGwire 1B 63.1 25.3 2.5 90.9
Lou Whitaker 2B 69.7 19.6 1.4 90.7
Tim Raines LF 64.6 21.4 2.3 88.3
Rafael Palmeiro 1B 66.0 20.5 1.6 88.1
Keith Hernandez 1B 61.0 23.7 2.5 87.2
Reggie Smith RF 63.4 20.9 0.3 84.6
Ken Boyer 3B 58.4 23.7 2.2 84.3

By: John Q Tue, 22 Mar 2011 20:22:22 +0000 Adam,

Overall I really like the idea of a WWAR stat, I think career WAR by itself is kind of limited and doesn't tell the whole story. I also like that you including all of those player's WARe & WARm in one convenient spot.

Any HOF is going to be kind of relative to what baseline you set for admittance and how many players you want to admit. You could set the baseline at 65 WWAR and you would get a certain look, 70 WWAR and you would get a different look, 75 WWAR and another etc.

I was checking to see who had the most WWAR and wasn't in the HOF and it was Santo (110.2 WWAR) which is not surprising. It's just a joke he's not in the HOF.

This would be the top 20 most eligible players not in the HOF according to WWAR:

9-K. Brown-94.7
16-K. Hernandez-87.2
17-R. Smith-84.6
18-K. Boyer-84.3
25-Bo Bonds-80.6

I might have missed someone but realistically all 25 should be solid HOF. But the HOF is dysfunctional so that's why they weren't elected.

By: Adam Darowski Tue, 22 Mar 2011 19:26:13 +0000 Guys, I wan t give a huge thanks for all the comments. I'm thinking hard about this, particularly the positions, WAE & WAM values, etc.

I'm going to continue commenting about where the Hall of wWAR goes next. So, keep an eye out for that. Your feedback is greatly appreciated.

By: John M Tue, 22 Mar 2011 19:23:00 +0000 The Hall of Fame is too difficult to measure in this way. Baseball has been so significantly different from its beginnings to the present that stats are all very, very relative. Consider that we have six distinct eras that all have a very different appearance
1 - 1875-1900 - Pre-institutional
2 - 1901-1920 - Organized Leagues begin/Deadball era
3 - 1921-1942 - Early modern era
4 - 1943-1968 - WWII/Post-war era
5 - 1969-1993 - Divisional Ball
6 - 1994 - Present - Multi-divisional

By: John Q Tue, 22 Mar 2011 04:25:38 +0000 @100 Adam,

You wouldn't have to include J. Clark because he only had a 68.5 or Jose Cruz with a 67.5 unless of coarse you wanted to lower your baseline to 67.

I can't see the logic in evening out the positions, What would happen if 2 or 3 first ballot HOF left fielders become eligible, you wouldn't be able to include them? There was also more better players at lf, rf and 1b so you can't really get around that. I would just set a baseline and make small adjustment here and there, Catchers, 19th century players etc.

I wouldn't worry about coming up with the same number of players as the HOF, just come up with your own number. The HOF are always going to have players that don't fit evenly into a baseline number because of things like the Negro leagues, Monte Irvin & Larry Doby, and WW2 or Korean WAR credit like Rizzuto, Doerr, Pesky, Slaughter, Ford or Newcombe.

By: Adam Darowski Tue, 22 Mar 2011 03:23:38 +0000 Well, one my goals in this process was to even out the positions. It's one of the problems I've had with the Hall of Fame for a long time, so it was a definite goal.

If I do tweak this a bit, that'll be an area I look at though.

The following would be added back to the Hall:

Billy Williams LF
Jake Beckley 1B
Jack Clark RF
Zack Wheat LF
Ralph Kiner LF
Norm Cash 1B
Jose Cruz LF
Frank Chance 1B
Enos Slaughter RF

But then, we no longer have the same number of players as the current Hall, so we need a new baseline and then end up booting other players like Dale Murphy, Ron Cey, Cupid Childs, Bid McPhee, Stan Hack, etc.

There are different ways of doing this, of course. Evening positions was definitely a goal I had in mind, though.

By: Joseph Tue, 22 Mar 2011 02:07:39 +0000 @ 97 Topper: That seems incredible to me that it is acceptable baseball statistical wisdom that SS is worth almost 30 WAR over LF/RF, just as a positional adjustment (given 11,200 PA's). I'm not arguing with it, just surprised.