Comments on: Highest career WAR with more fielding runs than batting runs http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/9746 This and that about baseball stats. Tue, 16 Jul 2013 17:01:55 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.6 By: One-Hit Wonders: Randy Myers to Dennys Reyes | Ducksnorts http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/9746/comment-page-1#comment-85513 Fri, 28 Jan 2011 14:56:09 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=9746#comment-85513 [...] Highest career WAR with more fielding runs than batting runs (Baseball-Reference). Here’s a fun list that includes former Padres Ozzie Smith, Graig Nettles, and Mike Cameron. [...]

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By: mccombe35 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/9746/comment-page-1#comment-84907 Wed, 26 Jan 2011 04:05:26 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=9746#comment-84907 @9

Ozzie Guillen was the 1st name I looked up after reading the 1st few

His fielding # & took such a hit because of the knee injury in '92. I remember that game when on the short pop to LF Raines went low to get it & cut out Ozzie at the knee.

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By: Johnny Twisto http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/9746/comment-page-1#comment-84846 Tue, 25 Jan 2011 23:32:00 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=9746#comment-84846 Basmati, no, but I guess it depends on what you mean by negative -- negative compared to what?

What the above numbers show is that Aparicio, Campy, and Vizquel were all further below average as hitters, compared to all hitters (rbat), than they were above average as fielders, compared only to other shortstops (rfield). But this does not include the inherent defensive value of playing shortstop (rpos), which is an "above-average" position. Plus value they added as baserunners (rbaser, rroe, rdp).

If by negative you mean "below average," you can compare their career Rrep to their career RAR. Rrep is the value an average player would have in that amount of playing time. Everything else is the amount the player is above- or below-average in various parts of the game. By looking at RAR minus Rrep, you can calculate Runs (or Wins) Above Average. Aparicio was 201 runs above avg, Campy was 170 RAA, Vizquel has been 68.

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By: Basmati http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/9746/comment-page-1#comment-84837 Tue, 25 Jan 2011 22:43:32 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=9746#comment-84837 I just looked up Peter Bourjos and after 51 games he has rfield of 16 and rbat of -10! That would translate to a difference of about 78 in one full season. Hopefully his batting will improve though.

I don't know the relationship between rfield and rbat but does this show Aparicio, Campaneris and Vizquel have had an overall negative contribution for their careers?

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By: LJF http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/9746/comment-page-1#comment-84831 Tue, 25 Jan 2011 22:05:25 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=9746#comment-84831 Samuel's similarity scores are interesting. Through 1988, he has 2 HOF'ers on his list (Morgan and Sandberg) and some other pretty good players (McCaulliffe, Durham, Grich). By the end of his career, he has this really weird mix of guys who could RUN - Lloyd Moseby, Andy Van Slyke, Shawon Dunston, Davey Lopes - and people like Phil Garner, Don Money and Ken Keltner. his age 37 list (his last year) has Brian Downing and Hubie Brooks.

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By: Lawrence Azrin http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/9746/comment-page-1#comment-84812 Tue, 25 Jan 2011 20:58:41 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=9746#comment-84812 #14/... Artie Z Says: "I like the list in #11 - about Juan Samuel ... in the mid-late 1980s there was an "article" in the TV Guide around the time of the All-Star game (I think). In that article knowledgeable baseball men were asked questions about who they thought were HOFers. The three names (voters or analysts) that I remember were Gammons, Ringolsby, and Bill James... What does this have to do with Juan Samuel? I believe Gammons had him as a darkhorse HOFer because he had 3 (or 4 depending on when it was written) straight seasons of 10+ 2Bs, 3BS, HRs, and SBs..."

Bill James wrote (in the NBJHA?) about how Samuel was overrated, because people gave him credit for his strengths without considering the corresponding weaknesses:

- he played an important position, second base, but not very well
- he had some power, but not enough to be real valuable playing a lesser position (15 HR/162 games, .420 SA)
- he had great speed, but didn't get on base enough to take full advantage of it (41 walks/162 games, .315 OBA)

He compiled some impressive counting stats his first four years by virtue of playing every day and leading off for a very good offensive team* (above NL-average except 1987). He was good, but not in the same league as Rogers Hornsby, with whom he was compared because of some impressive counting stats his first four years as a second baseman .

He had some obvious tools, but it wasn't clear how to best use those tools.

* Plate Appearances 1984-87: 1st, 2nd,1st, 3rd
Out Made 1984-87: 1st,1st, 6th, 1st

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By: Artie Z http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/9746/comment-page-1#comment-84773 Tue, 25 Jan 2011 17:09:05 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=9746#comment-84773 I like the list in 11 - about Juan Samuel ... in the mid-late 1980s there was an "article" in the TV Guide around the time of the All-Star game (I think). In that article knowledgeable baseball men were asked questions about who they thought were HOFers. The three names (voters or analysts) that I remember were Gammons, Ringolsby, and Bill James (not sure if they were all voters in this small study or just commented on it). At any rate, the interesting things I remember from that little blurb are that Tom Seaver was only named on 5 out of 6 ballots (I think Carlton had 6/6) and Mattingly and Gooden were named on the most ballots for "young players" or "non-eligible players because they had not played 10 years".

What does this have to do with Juan Samuel? I believe Gammons had him as a darkhorse HOFer because he had 3 (or 4 depending on when it was written) straight seasons of 10+ 2Bs, 3BS, HRs, and SBs. He may have been the only person to ever do that to start his career if I'm recalling the article correctly.

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By: barkie http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/9746/comment-page-1#comment-84758 Tue, 25 Jan 2011 15:49:19 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=9746#comment-84758 #6 Flatbush

I'm not so surprised to see Nettles and Williams on the list- or Brooks Robinson. These guys were all great fielders, had a handful of great offensive years and a bucketful of mediocre ones. All three were awesome players.

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By: Andy Patton http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/9746/comment-page-1#comment-84757 Tue, 25 Jan 2011 15:46:59 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=9746#comment-84757 @ Artie

You're right, Belanger and Blair are the only two players with a career WAR over 30 with a higher defensive WAR then an offensive, interesting how long they played together as well.

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By: DavidRF http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/9746/comment-page-1#comment-84751 Tue, 25 Jan 2011 15:26:21 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=9746#comment-84751 The reverse sort of the list above is pretty boring. Its just the greatest hitters of all time with some mild corrections due to fielding. The best values of Rbat ever are well over a thousand.

To make the list interesting, I decided only to include guys with worse than -100 for Rfield. Turns out there's only 16 of those guys ever. Its a fairly interesting list:

Gary Sheffield -762 ------ -180/520
Manny Ramirez -753 ----- -104/649
Dick Allen -570 ----- -109/461
Frank Howard -462 ----- -111/351
Derek Jeter - 443 ----- -121/322
Billy Williams -426 ----- -118/308
Bobby Bonilla -370 ----- -121/249
Danny Tartabull -347 ----- -121/226
Rick Monday -309 ----- -110/199
Bill Madlock -297 ----- -109/188
Jeff Burroughs -279 ----- -104/175
Eddie Yost -275 ----- -113/162
Howard Johnson -230 ----- -101/129
Juan Samuel -106 ----- -117/-11
Ricky Gutierrez -34 ----- -114/-80
Chris Gomez +8 ----- -111/-119

A lot of those names are understandable. Teams knew they couldn't field very well, but hoped their bat made up for it. The names at the bottom are surprising though. I suppose Juan Samuel was speedy and teams hoped he could learn to steal first. Its hard to explain how Gutierrez and Gomez kept finding work though. Each had fairly long careers and were fairly well paid... making $20M and $16M respectively... but each finished with negative career WAR. Goes to show that the line between riding a bus in AAA making peanuts and career earnings in the tens of millions is very small.

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