Comments on: Jamie Moyer needs Tommy John surgery, plans to play in 2012 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/9313 This and that about baseball stats. Tue, 16 Jul 2013 17:01:55 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.6 By: Mike Felber http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/9313/comment-page-1#comment-75300 Fri, 03 Dec 2010 07:32:01 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=9313#comment-75300 Pop quiz: the oldest player to ever play any professional baseball. Not listed above, & no looking it up.

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By: dukeofflattbush http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/9313/comment-page-1#comment-75078 Thu, 02 Dec 2010 06:16:04 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=9313#comment-75078 Donamous,
It aint that easy to just get the surgery and pitch.
There is exhaustive rehabbing, and the presence of mind to take it slow when your body might 'feel' ready.
That tremendous combination of effort and restraint, is not cheating.
If it were, I'd have Tomy John tomorrow (no innuendo).
Not everyone comes back from TJ surgery.
You first have to pitch well before the surgery.
Then you need the guts and restraint to come back properly.

Is Mark Prior cheating?
Kerry Wood?

To come back at 24-28 is amazing.
To do it at 48, at 48 when money and stats are not the issue, then i say, let him cheat.

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By: donamous http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/9313/comment-page-1#comment-75061 Thu, 02 Dec 2010 05:19:25 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=9313#comment-75061 I think if Moyer attempts to come back after TJ surgery at his age it's no different then cheating. I'm 61, maybe if I got TJ surgery I could pitch a few innings in a local Park League game.

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By: dukeofflattbush http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/9313/comment-page-1#comment-74988 Wed, 01 Dec 2010 23:05:57 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=9313#comment-74988 BSK

Great quote; Frank Tannana once said:
...'i threw 90 in the '70s and 70 in the '90s."
or something close.

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By: Jamie Gooden, or Dwight Moyer » Baseball-Reference Blog » Blog Archive http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/9313/comment-page-1#comment-74964 Wed, 01 Dec 2010 21:53:50 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=9313#comment-74964 [...] my earlier post about Jamie Moyer's season-killing injury, dukeofflatbush pointed out how good Dwight Gooden was in the first half of his career and how good [...]

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By: dukeofflattbush http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/9313/comment-page-1#comment-74933 Wed, 01 Dec 2010 19:52:15 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=9313#comment-74933 I wasn't comparing Doc, in terms of talent to Moyer. How could you. I was 9 years old durings Doc's rookie year. I watched maybe 20-22 of Doc's starts, and I can say in '84-85, only he could beat himself.
My point was, in 1993, there was simply a no-brainer that Doc was Hall bound and Moyer was no more than a fringe player, (remember he sat out all of 1992). So in retrospect, we need to remind ourselves of the fickle sport's gods and not count out Moyer, not yet. I would of bet against him huge in 1993 if you told me he'd have 260+ wins.
Common sense sometimes is usurped by sheer guts.
Jamie had the guts in 1993 and as far as I know, guts don't age.
Now as far as his arm, that's a different story.
But Jamie gets run down too much. AJ Burnett was by far the worse pitcher of the two.And AJ is 15 million dollar headache # 2 starter on the biggest stage in the world. No one is saying AJ should hang up his spikes. If every team had a 5 million dollar # 4 Moyer-esque pitcher, well, that wouldn't be a bad thing.
He's no diva (ala AJ), he can teach the young guys a lot. He knows the league, he's got class, guts and determination.
I'm rooting for him hard.
Go Jamie in 2012!!!!!

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By: John Autin http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/9313/comment-page-1#comment-74903 Wed, 01 Dec 2010 16:56:39 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=9313#comment-74903 @28, "Margo" --
"Moyer's longevity is remarkable but never at his best was close to the pitcher Doc was."

It's true that Moyer never had a year like Gooden did in 1985. Few pitchers ever have.

But overall, Moyer's best years compare pretty well with Gooden's. Here are the 10 best seasons by each pitcher (150+ IP), ranked by ERA+:

1 -- Gooden, 229
2 -- Gooden, 137
3 -- Moyer, 132
4 -- Moyer, 131
5 -- Moyer, 130
6 -- Moyer, 130
7 -- Moyer, 128
8 -- Gooden, 126
9 -- Moyer, 126
10 -- Moyer, 122
11 -- Gooden, 119
12 -- Moyer, 119
13 -- Gooden, 117
14 -- Moyer, 116
15 -- Moyer, 105
16 -- Gooden, 102
17 -- Gooden, 102
18 -- Gooden, 100
19 -- Gooden, 98
20 -- Gooden, 95

Moyer has 5 of the top 7 and 7 of the top 10.

Here are their top 10 seasons ranked by WAR:
1 -- Gooden, 11.7
2 -- Moyer, 5.7
3 -- Gooden, 5.4
4 -- Moyer, 5.3
5 -- Moyer, 5.2
6 -- Gooden, 4.4
7 -- Moyer, 3.9
8 -- Gooden, 3.8
9 -- Gooden and Moyer, 3.7
11 -- Gooden and Moyer, 3.3
13 -- Gooden and Moyer, 3.1
15 -- Moyer, 3.0
16 -- Gooden, 2.9
17 -- Gooden and Moyer, 2.7
19 -- Gooden and Moyer, 2.6

If you total each one's 10 best seasons by WAR, Gooden has 43.6, Moyer 38.5 -- Gooden's entire edge comes from his 1985 season.

The raw numbers are skewed by park, team and league context. For example, in 1988 Gooden went 18-9 with a 3.19 ERA -- in a pitcher's park, in a low-scoring league, with the league's best offense behind him. His raw ERA was 23rd in the NL; his 102 ERA+ was 27th.

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By: Detroit Michael http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/9313/comment-page-1#comment-74874 Wed, 01 Dec 2010 13:58:20 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=9313#comment-74874 #21,

That's a great guess. Julio Franco was completely out of the majors at age 41 (and also age 39) before coming back at age 42. Of course, he then stayed in the majors for several years.

If Moyer came back, he'd have that beat by several years of course.

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By: Margo Adams http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/9313/comment-page-1#comment-74873 Wed, 01 Dec 2010 13:40:02 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=9313#comment-74873 In addition to the arm, one has to wonder if his legs and/or back will be healthy enough to pitch after a 2 year layoff. He probably hurts his case more by waiting to get this done, even if it wasn't clear right away that he needed it.

"In 1993 a 28 year old Dwight Gooden had these #s:
154 Ws --1835 Ks -- 2128.1 IPs -- 67 CG 118 ERA+
After:
40 Ws -- 458 Ks -- 672.1 IPs -- 1 CG -- 96 ERA+
In '93, a 30 year old Jamie Moyer was coming back from injury and had these #s
46 Ws -- 525 Ks -- 852 IPs --10 CG -- ERA+ 92
Since 94, Moyer:
221 Ws -- 1880 Ks -- 3168.1 IPs -- 23 CG -- 107 ERA+ "

I'll take the pre -1993 Gooden in 8 years anyday over anything Moyer did in the last 16 years. Moyer's longevity is remarkable but never at his best was close to the pitcher Doc was.

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By: dukeofflattbush http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/9313/comment-page-1#comment-74832 Wed, 01 Dec 2010 04:32:39 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=9313#comment-74832 In 1993 a 28 year old Dwight Gooden had these #s:
154 Ws --1835 Ks -- 2128.1 IPs -- 67 CG 118 ERA+
After:
40 Ws -- 458 Ks -- 672.1 IPs -- 1 CG -- 96 ERA+
In '93, a 30 year old Jamie Moyer was coming back from injury and had these #s
46 Ws -- 525 Ks -- 852 IPs --10 CG -- ERA+ 92
Since 94, Moyer:
221 Ws -- 1880 Ks -- 3168.1 IPs -- 23 CG -- 107 ERA+

Just saying, if we threw in the towel on Jamie in '93 and put Doc in the Hall, we'd all be wiping egg from our face.
So you never know, Jamie seems pretty determined and I think it'll make a great story, I'm rooting for him.
Hoyt Wilhelm pitched to 49 as well.

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