Comments on: The Jeter Meter http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/812 This and that about baseball stats. Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:57:02 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: spudart http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/812/comment-page-1#comment-5637 spudart Mon, 06 Oct 2008 13:20:39 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/sotd/?p=812#comment-5637 I'm also interested in players who get on base at least one time during the game, here's the top five: Frank Thomas 1758 Ind. Games Jeff Bagwell 1758 Ind. Games Derek Jeter 1737 Ind. Games Wade Boggs 1725 Ind. Games Edgar Martinez 1719 Ind. Games http://www.bb-ref.com/pi/shareit/Pj9H There's Jeter again. And i'm also interested in who avoided the oh-for, so here's the list of getting at least one hit (not including walks). I call it the "avoiding the oh-for" list: Derek Jeter 1539 Ind. Games Tony Gwynn 1517 Ind. Games Pete Rose 1474 Ind. Games Paul Molitor 1471 Ind. Games Wade Boggs 1471 Ind. Games http://www.bb-ref.com/pi/shareit/2pbN Well, lookit that. Jeter is on top. I'm also interested in players who get on base at least one time during the game, here's the top five:
Frank Thomas 1758 Ind. Games
Jeff Bagwell 1758 Ind. Games
Derek Jeter 1737 Ind. Games
Wade Boggs 1725 Ind. Games
Edgar Martinez 1719 Ind. Games

http://www.bb-ref.com/pi/shareit/Pj9H
There's Jeter again.

And i'm also interested in who avoided the oh-for, so here's the list of getting at least one hit (not including walks). I call it the "avoiding the oh-for" list:

Derek Jeter 1539 Ind. Games
Tony Gwynn 1517 Ind. Games
Pete Rose 1474 Ind. Games
Paul Molitor 1471 Ind. Games
Wade Boggs 1471 Ind. Games

http://www.bb-ref.com/pi/shareit/2pbN
Well, lookit that. Jeter is on top.

]]> By: JohnnyTwisto http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/812/comment-page-1#comment-5614 JohnnyTwisto Wed, 01 Oct 2008 15:40:28 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/sotd/?p=812#comment-5614 Agreed that HOF players need not be well-rounded, but presumably they must reach some level of total value to get inducted. (Obviously, different voters have different levels, and different ways of calculating value.) Martinez's inability to play the field impacts the value he had. I'm not saying a career DH should be ineligible for the HOF, but the offense required from one is more than required from anyone else, and I'm not sure Martinez quite gets there. Raines had a longer career than Thome has had, hence more WS. The seasons Raines played in NY were helpful for the Yankees, but I don't think add much to his HOF resume. Which player had more 25-WS seasons, more 30-WS seasons? WS essentially has a replacement level of 0. Anyone who plays collects some WS. Use a measure with a higher replacement level (or something like Win Shares Above Bench, which I believe is calculated at Hardballtimes.com) and you may find a different answer. Not to say either is definitely correct, but were I a HOF voter, I would focus on a player's value in his prime, and possibly completely ignore the seasons when he was below average. Agreed that HOF players need not be well-rounded, but presumably they must reach some level of total value to get inducted. (Obviously, different voters have different levels, and different ways of calculating value.) Martinez's inability to play the field impacts the value he had. I'm not saying a career DH should be ineligible for the HOF, but the offense required from one is more than required from anyone else, and I'm not sure Martinez quite gets there.

Raines had a longer career than Thome has had, hence more WS. The seasons Raines played in NY were helpful for the Yankees, but I don't think add much to his HOF resume. Which player had more 25-WS seasons, more 30-WS seasons? WS essentially has a replacement level of 0. Anyone who plays collects some WS. Use a measure with a higher replacement level (or something like Win Shares Above Bench, which I believe is calculated at Hardballtimes.com) and you may find a different answer. Not to say either is definitely correct, but were I a HOF voter, I would focus on a player's value in his prime, and possibly completely ignore the seasons when he was below average.

]]> By: David in Toledo http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/812/comment-page-1#comment-5613 David in Toledo Wed, 01 Oct 2008 13:17:37 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/sotd/?p=812#comment-5613 65%+ career games at DH (minimum 1000 career games at all positions): Edgar, Hal McRae (230 ws), David Ortiz (180 ws; he's played about 60% as much as the other two). Edgar's iconic status in Seattle should count for something; it's then a question of how much, and of how much is "needed" beyond his statistics. What happens to Jim Thome (c. 350 ws)? Does he need more ws than Tim Raines (390)? Is there a some other valid metric that puts his accomplishment, with two more years at 2008 rates, ahead of Tim Raines's? (I don't think so.) 65%+ career games at DH (minimum 1000 career games at all positions): Edgar, Hal McRae (230 ws), David Ortiz (180 ws; he's played about 60% as much as the other two).

Edgar's iconic status in Seattle should count for something; it's then a question of how much, and of how much is "needed" beyond his statistics.

What happens to Jim Thome (c. 350 ws)? Does he need more ws than Tim Raines (390)? Is there a some other valid metric that puts his accomplishment, with two more years at 2008 rates, ahead of Tim Raines's? (I don't think so.)

]]> By: kingturtle http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/812/comment-page-1#comment-5612 kingturtle Wed, 01 Oct 2008 12:07:34 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/sotd/?p=812#comment-5612 Edgar Martinez played 32% of his games as a fielder. 32%!! Even Molitor managed 56%. For me that takes a lot out of Edgar's Hall of Fame potential. Can we get a list of other players who have played 65%+ career games at DH? Edgar Martinez played 32% of his games as a fielder. 32%!! Even Molitor managed 56%. For me that takes a lot out of Edgar's Hall of Fame potential. Can we get a list of other players who have played 65%+ career games at DH?

]]> By: NickH44 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/812/comment-page-1#comment-5611 NickH44 Wed, 01 Oct 2008 05:35:55 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/sotd/?p=812#comment-5611 Edgar wasn't a great defensive player no doubt, but I don't think the Hall is reserved for only players that are well-rounded. Edgar is known predominantly as a DH, and the Hall, whether you agree with the DH rule or not, needs representation in the HOF because it is a big part of baseball. So who better to put in than a player who many call the greatest DH of all time? Molitor and Thomas should be in there too, as far as I'm concerned. Of course, this is coming from a Seattle fan. This may be about all I have to look forward to for the next few years. Stats aside, he is the only great player who was a career-long Mariner, he was instrumental in all of the M's successful seasons, and everyone loved him. There are things that should count for something beyond statistics when it comes to the Hall. Edgar wasn't a great defensive player no doubt, but I don't think the Hall is reserved for only players that are well-rounded. Edgar is known predominantly as a DH, and the Hall, whether you agree with the DH rule or not, needs representation in the HOF because it is a big part of baseball. So who better to put in than a player who many call the greatest DH of all time? Molitor and Thomas should be in there too, as far as I'm concerned.

Of course, this is coming from a Seattle fan. This may be about all I have to look forward to for the next few years. Stats aside, he is the only great player who was a career-long Mariner, he was instrumental in all of the M's successful seasons, and everyone loved him. There are things that should count for something beyond statistics when it comes to the Hall.

]]> By: David in Toledo http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/812/comment-page-1#comment-5604 David in Toledo Tue, 30 Sep 2008 22:27:00 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/sotd/?p=812#comment-5604 Not to slam Jeter. But he's number 7 on this list, and you have to go all the way to #15 (Yaz) to find someone with a career OB% lower than Derek's, even including all their decline phases. IMO, a career DH should collect 400 career win shares to have a HOF presumption. The HOF itself lists Paul Molitor (404 ws) as a DH. Frank Thomas's total is 406. I can't find a computation for 2002, but Edgar Martinez's career total would appear to be no more than 320. ZimJim, don't take this as a firm thumbs-down, just as my idea that he doesn't have a presumption in his favor and needs a lot of justifying argument. Not to slam Jeter. But he's number 7 on this list, and you have to go all the way to #15 (Yaz) to find someone with a career OB% lower than Derek's, even including all their decline phases.

IMO, a career DH should collect 400 career win shares to have a HOF presumption. The HOF itself lists Paul Molitor (404 ws) as a DH. Frank Thomas's total is 406. I can't find a computation for 2002, but Edgar Martinez's career total would appear to be no more than 320. ZimJim, don't take this as a firm thumbs-down, just as my idea that he doesn't have a presumption in his favor and needs a lot of justifying argument.

]]> By: JohnnyTwisto http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/812/comment-page-1#comment-5602 JohnnyTwisto Tue, 30 Sep 2008 21:07:38 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/sotd/?p=812#comment-5602 Martinez was certainly a great hitter, but has very little defensive value and couldn't run at all his last several seasons. Was his hitting great enough to overcome that? I'm not sure. I can't say he shouldn't be a HOF, but I can't say he should, either. Those HOF standards were calculated by Bill James almost 20 years ago, and were meant only to show certain statistical standards that inductees have met. They are not meant to predict who should be in the HOF, and they have little utility for players who compiled most of their numbers in the high-offensive era when Martinez played. Martinez was certainly a great hitter, but has very little defensive value and couldn't run at all his last several seasons. Was his hitting great enough to overcome that? I'm not sure. I can't say he shouldn't be a HOF, but I can't say he should, either.

Those HOF standards were calculated by Bill James almost 20 years ago, and were meant only to show certain statistical standards that inductees have met. They are not meant to predict who should be in the HOF, and they have little utility for players who compiled most of their numbers in the high-offensive era when Martinez played.

]]> By: ZimJim http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/812/comment-page-1#comment-5601 ZimJim Tue, 30 Sep 2008 19:52:47 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/sotd/?p=812#comment-5601 Kingturtle, I agree with you, great stat for hall of fame caliber players. But why not edgar martinez? He has great numbers and is above or at the average for HOF Standards and HOF Monitor on his stats page and around HOF average for Black and Grey Ink stats. Kingturtle, I agree with you, great stat for hall of fame caliber players. But why not edgar martinez? He has great numbers and is above or at the average for HOF Standards and HOF Monitor on his stats page and around HOF average for Black and Grey Ink stats.

]]> By: kingturtle http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/812/comment-page-1#comment-5599 kingturtle Tue, 30 Sep 2008 19:21:24 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/sotd/?p=812#comment-5599 except for Edgar Martinez, the first 16 are, will be, or should be in the Hall of Fame. except for Edgar Martinez, the first 16 are, will be, or should be in the Hall of Fame.

]]> By: statboy http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/812/comment-page-1#comment-5593 statboy Tue, 30 Sep 2008 15:49:22 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/sotd/?p=812#comment-5593 It doesn't rhyme, but shouldn't you call it the Wade Boggs Meter? :) It doesn't rhyme, but shouldn't you call it the Wade Boggs Meter? :)

]]>