Comments on: POLL: Jim Thome and the Hall of Fame http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/7239 This and that about baseball stats. Tue, 16 Jul 2013 17:01:55 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.6 By: thomas http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/7239/comment-page-1#comment-32307 Thu, 22 Jul 2010 07:16:49 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=7239#comment-32307 Thome should have won the Gold Glove in 2003, his first year with the Phillies. How come nobody talks about that. The voters gave it to Derrick Lee, but that was not right. Thome had more chances, more assists, more put-outs, and the same number of errors as Lee (5). The voters just could not acknowledge that Thome deserved it because for years they had a all talked -like some of the people posting here- about how Thome was not a very good fielder. But he developed into a very good defensive 1st baseman by 2003 - he should have won the GG, and yes, that should be a contributing factor to him being elected to the Hall of Fame on the first ballot.

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By: Jay http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/7239/comment-page-1#comment-31905 Tue, 20 Jul 2010 20:13:42 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=7239#comment-31905 I think the 1st Basemen from 1990-2005 should rank:

1. McGwire
2. Bagwell
3. Thomas
4. McGriff
5. Thome

So when the others ahead of him get in, we can talk about Thome.

But I think he's getting in someday.

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By: BSK http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/7239/comment-page-1#comment-30101 Mon, 12 Jul 2010 21:29:07 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=7239#comment-30101 Andy-

I wasn't specifically talking about giving Thome, or any other individual, an actual "bonus". Rather, I was just thinking out loud about the fact that some players who DIDN'T do steroids will ultimately be harmed when we look at era-adjusted stats. There is no way to account for that, but it is a reality. And an unfortunate one.

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By: Chris http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/7239/comment-page-1#comment-30047 Mon, 12 Jul 2010 15:35:50 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=7239#comment-30047 I think Thome certainly deserves to get in, as I remember him being one of the best offensive players in the game in the mid-late 90s and early-mid 00s, and I do think he'll eventually get in, though it may take him a few ballots. Recently, I looked at his profile here, and was surprised to see so few years with MVP votes--can you say overlooked?

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By: Matt Young http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/7239/comment-page-1#comment-30032 Mon, 12 Jul 2010 14:14:01 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=7239#comment-30032 So, how do you deal with the era Andy and otehrs? I agree with you, yes we shouldn't assume they were clean just because they weren't reported, but can we assume they did use without a shred of evidence? No, Thome shouldn't get a bonus, and that's why i think you have to induct all of them on the numbers --there have been plenty of cheats in the game over time. That's why I say, mention whether they used or not with the evidence presented, and then everyone that goes in that played from 1987-2005 it states played during the steroid era. Again, what hurts McGwire, Sosa and Palmero so much was there non-testimony.

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By: Andy http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/7239/comment-page-1#comment-30026 Mon, 12 Jul 2010 13:38:59 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=7239#comment-30026 I hate to sound angry, but any time I hear someone say "he's never been mentioned alongside steroids" or similar, a red flag goes up in my head about naivety. I have no proof that Thome, Griffey, Frank Thomas, Ryan Howard, Mark Teixeira, or hundreds of other players ever used any substance banned by baseball. But if you held a gun to my head and forced me to guess yes or no on each guy, I would guess yes on each and every single guy.

Remember how ambitious these guys are. You don't get to the major leagues without incredible determination and effort that is in the top 1% of the top 1%. Thing about Tiger Woods, a guy who puts his only value so far above the rest of the world that he treated his wife and hundreds of other women like garbage, and thinks he can get away with it! He's also been linked to HGH in an ongoing investigation.

We know that the average ball player is more similar than dissimilar to Tiger Woods. We know the majority of them cheat on their wives (yes, we KNOW that--there have been enough books published that deal with the subject.) We know the majority of ballplayers hunt, gamble, and engage in other activities that are indicative of risk-taking and lack of acknowledgment of consequences, just like Tiger Woods. Do you folks really think that the list of players who used banned substances stops at just the names that have leaked out? That's incredibly naive.

I'm not saying that I think Thome used steroids. Nor am I saying that we should assume he did. My point is only that it's crazy to give him a "bonus" just because his name has never come up. The entire era was tainted, and we probably know at most 5-10% of the players who used.

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By: Matt Young http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/7239/comment-page-1#comment-30024 Mon, 12 Jul 2010 13:29:45 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=7239#comment-30024 Just induct them all with no asterisk but mention any proof (even if they were just mentioned in a report with no hard evidence) about whether said player used....perhaps mention it was the steroid era as well. It's too hard to weed them all out, and if there's allegations against someone then it's highly likely they used --just induct them on the numbers and mention they were reported in Mitchell report or elsewhere as a user. If we have no proof of someone using then I think we have to assume they were clean, but we could still mention it was the steroid era. What hurts McGwire, Sosa and Palmero the most is they were so ridiculous at the hearing, but really, the writers, the players, and especially Bud the Bum were all responsible. Do people in this forum see HGH and steroids as the same or do you think there's a difference. I think there's a bit of a difference between the two. Do people in this forum see HGH and steroids as the same or do you think there's a difference. I think there's a bit of a difference between the two.

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By: Jonathan http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/7239/comment-page-1#comment-30011 Mon, 12 Jul 2010 10:12:18 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=7239#comment-30011 Johnny Twisto, do you have proof he DID steroids? I am not naive. Some did. However, I have NO proof of him doing it.

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By: DavidRF http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/7239/comment-page-1#comment-29990 Mon, 12 Jul 2010 04:53:13 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=7239#comment-29990 ... plus I'm skeptical about these impending blacklists for PED users. Where was all this righteous indignation from baseball writers when these guys were playing? Everyone knew there was mass PED use, yet, these guys kept being given awards by the writers. Long-standing MLB records were chased for years and then broken and nobody ever did anything. We have the record book that MLB/MLBPA/BBWAA wanted as far as I'm concerned.

But, I can see why others are less stats-centric than myself. 🙂

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By: DavidRF http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/7239/comment-page-1#comment-29989 Mon, 12 Jul 2010 04:37:07 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=7239#comment-29989 No bonuses for being clean. That's how Ray Schalk ended up in the HOF and its ended up being an odd asterisk on his induction. Plus, you never know, at one time Palmeiro's stock soared because it looked like he was clean. We'd feel extra betrayed if we incorrectly gave a guy a bonus.

Its all moot with Thome anyways. By the numbers, he's an easy pick. Whether he's first ballot depends on who else is eligible at the time. He's not the type who'd have to wait because they can't make up their mind (Rice, Perez, etc), but he might have to wait a year or two if the ballot is crowded with better players.

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