Comments on: “The Core Four” http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/3251 This and that about baseball stats. Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:57:02 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: DavidRF http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/3251/comment-page-1#comment-9731 DavidRF Mon, 09 Nov 2009 18:57:02 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=3251#comment-9731 Tmckelv, the A's did indeed have great teams from 29-31 and I think you underestimate the 34-35 Tigers as well, who match up pretty favorably against the 34-35 Yankees on paper. Could the Yankees have won a pennant or two in there? Sure. But in my opinion the amazing thing about the 20s-60s era Yankees is that they won as many pennants as they did. Stringing together four-peats and five-peats means you can't have an off year (like 1940 or 1959) and another team can't catch lightning in a bottle (like 33-WAS or 54-CLE). Tmckelv, the A's did indeed have great teams from 29-31 and I think you underestimate the 34-35 Tigers as well, who match up pretty favorably against the 34-35 Yankees on paper.

Could the Yankees have won a pennant or two in there? Sure. But in my opinion the amazing thing about the 20s-60s era Yankees is that they won as many pennants as they did. Stringing together four-peats and five-peats means you can't have an off year (like 1940 or 1959) and another team can't catch lightning in a bottle (like 33-WAS or 54-CLE).

]]> By: tmckelv http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/3251/comment-page-1#comment-9730 tmckelv Mon, 09 Nov 2009 17:46:32 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=3251#comment-9730 Obviously the Yankees have appeared in numerous World Series, and as ridiculous as it sounds, you can actually make a case that they <i>SHOULD<i> have been in a few more (not even including the ALCS loss the Red Sox in 2004). If you look at the timeframe from 1929 to 1935 (7 seasons), The Yanks were in only 1 World Series (1932). Look at the list of players that were on those 1929-35 teams: C - Bill Dickey (1929-35) HOF 1B - Lou Gehrig (1929-35) HOF 2B - Tony Lazzeri (1929-35) HOF SS - Frankie Crosetti (1932-35) 3B - Joe Sewell (1931-33)/Red Rolfe (1935) LF - Bob Meusel (1929)/Ben Chapman (also 3B/CF 1930-35)/George Selkirk (also RF 1934-1935) CF - Earl Combs (1929-33) HOF RF - Babe Ruth (1929-34) HOF P - Red Ruffing (1930-35) HOF P - Lefty Gomez (1931-35) HOF P - Herb Pennock (1929-31) HOF P - George Pipgras (1929-31) P - Johnny Allen (1932-35) P - Waite Hoyt (1929) HOF There are A LOT of great names on that list (HOF, All-Stars, guys that played in other WS). Those Yankee teams probably should have won some more Pennants. Maybe you can understand 1929-31 a little bit because the pitching may not have been 100% there and the great 1929-31 Philadelphia Athletics were one of the all-time teams (although the yanks still could have gotten at least 1 during those seasons). But there isn't much of an excuse for the years 1933 to 1935. They should have been able to beat out the Senators/Tigers those years. Thanks for reading, Tom Obviously the Yankees have appeared in numerous World Series, and as ridiculous as it sounds, you can actually make a case that they SHOULD have been in a few more (not even including the ALCS loss the Red Sox in 2004).

If you look at the timeframe from 1929 to 1935 (7 seasons), The Yanks were in only 1 World Series (1932). Look at the list of players that were on those 1929-35 teams:
C - Bill Dickey (1929-35) HOF
1B - Lou Gehrig (1929-35) HOF
2B - Tony Lazzeri (1929-35) HOF
SS - Frankie Crosetti (1932-35)
3B - Joe Sewell (1931-33)/Red Rolfe (1935)
LF - Bob Meusel (1929)/Ben Chapman (also 3B/CF 1930-35)/George Selkirk (also RF 1934-1935)
CF - Earl Combs (1929-33) HOF
RF - Babe Ruth (1929-34) HOF
P - Red Ruffing (1930-35) HOF
P - Lefty Gomez (1931-35) HOF
P - Herb Pennock (1929-31) HOF
P - George Pipgras (1929-31)
P - Johnny Allen (1932-35)
P - Waite Hoyt (1929) HOF

There are A LOT of great names on that list (HOF, All-Stars, guys that played in other WS). Those Yankee teams probably should have won some more Pennants.

Maybe you can understand 1929-31 a little bit because the pitching may not have been 100% there and the great 1929-31 Philadelphia Athletics were one of the all-time teams (although the yanks still could have gotten at least 1 during those seasons). But there isn't much of an excuse for the years 1933 to 1935. They should have been able to beat out the Senators/Tigers those years.

Thanks for reading,

Tom

]]> By: gerry http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/3251/comment-page-1#comment-9729 gerry Mon, 09 Nov 2009 11:54:45 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=3251#comment-9729 Thanks, Raphy, for posting all that Mantle stuff. 1955 - Mantle almost at his peak - the Yankees go 0-3 with him, 3-1 without - hard to believe. One more proof, if any were needed, that strange things can happen in short series. Thanks, Raphy, for posting all that Mantle stuff. 1955 - Mantle almost at his peak - the Yankees go 0-3 with him, 3-1 without - hard to believe. One more proof, if any were needed, that strange things can happen in short series.

]]> By: DavidRF http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/3251/comment-page-1#comment-9727 DavidRF Mon, 09 Nov 2009 04:05:07 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=3251#comment-9727 Mike Mussina's career with the Yankees ended up directly coinciding with the championship drought. 123-72 record. 12th most winningest Yankee pitcher ever. Only Stottlemyre and Chesbro have more without winning a WS. Jason Giambi's the batter whose career most fills the drought (he only missed 2001). His 209 HR's is 12th on the Yankee list. #11 is Mattingly who also has no championship (no pennants either) while the top 10 all have championships. Mike Mussina's career with the Yankees ended up directly coinciding with the championship drought. 123-72 record. 12th most winningest Yankee pitcher ever. Only Stottlemyre and Chesbro have more without winning a WS.

Jason Giambi's the batter whose career most fills the drought (he only missed 2001). His 209 HR's is 12th on the Yankee list. #11 is Mattingly who also has no championship (no pennants either) while the top 10 all have championships.

]]> By: DavidRF http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/3251/comment-page-1#comment-9726 DavidRF Mon, 09 Nov 2009 03:48:52 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=3251#comment-9726 The Yankees best run of WS Success was 1927-53 where they went 15-1. Before Murder's Row, Ruth had gone 1-3 with the Yankees (though he was 3-0 with the Sox). After the five-peat, the Mantle-era Yankees went 4-5. The Nettles-Randolph group went 2-2 and the Jeter-Rivera group is now 5-2. Ruth 4-3 (7-3 total) Gehrig 6-1 Dickey 7-1 Gomez 5-0 Ruffing 6-1 DiMaggio 9-1 Rizzuto 7-2 Berra 10-4 Reynolds/Raschi 6-0 (Lopat 5-0) Ford 6-5 Mantle 7-5 Howard 4-5 (4-6 total) Richardson 3-5 Terry 2-3 Tresh 1-2 Bouton 0-2 Nettles/Randolph 2-2 (both 2-3 total) ReJackson 2-1 (4-1 total) Hunter 2-1 (5-1 total) Cone 4-0 (5-0 total) O'Neill 4-1 (5-1 total) BeWilliams 4-2 Jeter/Pettite/Rivera 5-2 Posada 4-2 ... not sure if I have a point, but I looked all that up so I might as well post it. :) The Yankees best run of WS Success was 1927-53 where they went 15-1. Before Murder's Row, Ruth had gone 1-3 with the Yankees (though he was 3-0 with the Sox). After the five-peat, the Mantle-era Yankees went 4-5. The Nettles-Randolph group went 2-2 and the Jeter-Rivera group is now 5-2.

Ruth 4-3 (7-3 total)
Gehrig 6-1
Dickey 7-1
Gomez 5-0
Ruffing 6-1
DiMaggio 9-1
Rizzuto 7-2
Berra 10-4
Reynolds/Raschi 6-0 (Lopat 5-0)
Ford 6-5
Mantle 7-5
Howard 4-5 (4-6 total)
Richardson 3-5
Terry 2-3
Tresh 1-2
Bouton 0-2
Nettles/Randolph 2-2 (both 2-3 total)
ReJackson 2-1 (4-1 total)
Hunter 2-1 (5-1 total)
Cone 4-0 (5-0 total)
O'Neill 4-1 (5-1 total)
BeWilliams 4-2
Jeter/Pettite/Rivera 5-2
Posada 4-2

... not sure if I have a point, but I looked all that up so I might as well post it. :)

]]> By: DoubleDiamond http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/3251/comment-page-1#comment-9725 DoubleDiamond Mon, 09 Nov 2009 03:37:02 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=3251#comment-9725 Reggie Jackson missed the 7-game 1972 World Series due to injury. If he had played in all 7 games, he would have been tied at 34 with Pete Rose for 3rd on that first list up there. Now, if his presence had caused Oakland to win at least one of the games it lost, thus causing that Series to go fewer than 7 games, he'd still be tied with Rose, because that would have been that many fewer World Series games for him, too! (The games that Oakland lost were games 3, 5, and 6. Games 3 and 5 were one-run losses, while Game 6 was the only game won by either team that year that was not a one-run game. Like 1960, this was a 7-game World Series in which the losing team out-scored the winning team. So, Reggie would have more likely made a difference in game 3 or game 5. Therefore, there would not only have not been a game 7, there would also not have been a game 6. So, Reggie would have had 32 World Series games, and Rose would have also only had 32 such games. This would have tied both of them with Bernie Williams and Lonnie Smith.) Don't forget that one of Andy Pettitte's World Series starts was with Houston in 2005, getting a no-decision in his only start, one of the four losses in the sweep by the White Sox. He left in a situation to be the winner, a lead after six innings. The lead changed hands a few times after he left, with the winning run surrendered, not in a save situation because the game was tied, by someone else who did the same thing in a 2009 World Series game. Reggie Jackson missed the 7-game 1972 World Series due to injury. If he had played in all 7 games, he would have been tied at 34 with Pete Rose for 3rd on that first list up there. Now, if his presence had caused Oakland to win at least one of the games it lost, thus causing that Series to go fewer than 7 games, he'd still be tied with Rose, because that would have been that many fewer World Series games for him, too! (The games that Oakland lost were games 3, 5, and 6. Games 3 and 5 were one-run losses, while Game 6 was the only game won by either team that year that was not a one-run game. Like 1960, this was a 7-game World Series in which the losing team out-scored the winning team. So, Reggie would have more likely made a difference in game 3 or game 5. Therefore, there would not only have not been a game 7, there would also not have been a game 6. So, Reggie would have had 32 World Series games, and Rose would have also only had 32 such games. This would have tied both of them with Bernie Williams and Lonnie Smith.)

Don't forget that one of Andy Pettitte's World Series starts was with Houston in 2005, getting a no-decision in his only start, one of the four losses in the sweep by the White Sox. He left in a situation to be the winner, a lead after six innings. The lead changed hands a few times after he left, with the winning run surrendered, not in a save situation because the game was tied, by someone else who did the same thing in a 2009 World Series game.

]]> By: Raphy http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/3251/comment-page-1#comment-9722 Raphy Mon, 09 Nov 2009 02:28:00 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=3251#comment-9722 Gerry - I agree it is surprising. However, the Yankees only won 7 of the 12 series Mantle played in and a lot of those were seven game series. During those years, the Yankees were also 8-3 in World Series games in which Mantle did not play. 1951: Yankees 4-2 Mantle 1-1 1952: Yankees 4-3 Mantle 4-3 1953: Yankees 4-2 Mantle 4-2 1954: none 1955: Yankees 3-4 Mantle 0-3 1956: Yankees 4-3 Mantle 4-3 1957: Yankees 3-4 Mantle 2-4 1958: Yankees 4-3 Mantle 4-3 1959: none 1960: Yankees 3-4 Mantle 3-4 1961: Yankees 4-1 Mantle 2-0 1962: Yankees 4-3 Mantle 4-3 1963: Yankees 0-4 Mantle 0-4 1964: Yankees 3-4 Mantle 3-4 Gerry - I agree it is surprising. However, the Yankees only won 7 of the 12 series Mantle played in and a lot of those were seven game series. During those years, the Yankees were also 8-3 in World Series games in which Mantle did not play.

1951: Yankees 4-2 Mantle 1-1
1952: Yankees 4-3 Mantle 4-3
1953: Yankees 4-2 Mantle 4-2
1954: none
1955: Yankees 3-4 Mantle 0-3
1956: Yankees 4-3 Mantle 4-3
1957: Yankees 3-4 Mantle 2-4
1958: Yankees 4-3 Mantle 4-3
1959: none
1960: Yankees 3-4 Mantle 3-4
1961: Yankees 4-1 Mantle 2-0
1962: Yankees 4-3 Mantle 4-3
1963: Yankees 0-4 Mantle 0-4
1964: Yankees 3-4 Mantle 3-4

]]> By: Raphy http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/3251/comment-page-1#comment-9721 Raphy Mon, 09 Nov 2009 02:06:09 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=3251#comment-9721 <blockquote cite="Not sure what the circumstances were there but I think he could count as well."> </blockquote> According to wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfredo_Aceves Aceves was signed by the Toronto Blue Jays as an amateur free agent in 2001. He made ten starts in the Dominican Summer League that year. However, Aceves felt isolated, and when the Blue Jays assigned him to stay in the DSL for 2002, Aceves stayed in Mexico, and his contract was purchased by the Yucatán Leones of the Mexican League.[2] Aceves pitched for Yucatán and Sultanes de Monterrey for the next six seasons. Yankees scout Lee Sigman followed Aceves in the Mexican League, feeling he could achieve similar success as Teddy Higuera, who Sigman had signed for the Milwaukee Brewers.[2] Feeling that he had developed well in the Mexican League, the Yankees purchased Aceves, along with other players, for $450,000 during the 2007-08 offseason.[2] He began 2008 with the Single-A Advanced Tampa Yankees. He was quickly promoted to the Double-A Trenton Thunder and Triple-A Scranton/Wilkes-Barre Yankees. He was named Eastern League pitcher of the week for the week ending May 25, 2008.[3]

According to wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfredo_Aceves
Aceves was signed by the Toronto Blue Jays as an amateur free agent in 2001. He made ten starts in the Dominican Summer League that year. However, Aceves felt isolated, and when the Blue Jays assigned him to stay in the DSL for 2002, Aceves stayed in Mexico, and his contract was purchased by the Yucatán Leones of the Mexican League.[2] Aceves pitched for Yucatán and Sultanes de Monterrey for the next six seasons.

Yankees scout Lee Sigman followed Aceves in the Mexican League, feeling he could achieve similar success as Teddy Higuera, who Sigman had signed for the Milwaukee Brewers.[2] Feeling that he had developed well in the Mexican League, the Yankees purchased Aceves, along with other players, for $450,000 during the 2007-08 offseason.[2] He began 2008 with the Single-A Advanced Tampa Yankees. He was quickly promoted to the Double-A Trenton Thunder and Triple-A Scranton/Wilkes-Barre Yankees. He was named Eastern League pitcher of the week for the week ending May 25, 2008.[3]

]]> By: JohnnyTwisto http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/3251/comment-page-1#comment-9720 JohnnyTwisto Mon, 09 Nov 2009 01:42:46 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=3251#comment-9720 Ramiro Pena made the team after Cabrera was removed (but did not play). Alfredo Aceves was signed out of the Mexican League; B-R shows he was originally signed by Toronto in 2001, but shows no record of him ever playing in their system. Not sure what the circumstances were there but I think he could count as well. Ramiro Pena made the team after Cabrera was removed (but did not play). Alfredo Aceves was signed out of the Mexican League; B-R shows he was originally signed by Toronto in 2001, but shows no record of him ever playing in their system. Not sure what the circumstances were there but I think he could count as well.

]]> By: Andy http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/3251/comment-page-1#comment-9719 Andy Mon, 09 Nov 2009 01:18:23 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=3251#comment-9719 Players appearing in the 2009 World Series for the Yankees that were originally drafted by them (or signed as free agents with the Yankeeas as their first MLB-affiliated organization, e.g. minor-league free agent like Melky Cabrera) Melky Cabrera Robinson Cano Joba Chamberlain Phil Coke Brett Gardner Phil Hughes Derek Jeter Hideki Matsui Andy Pettitte Jorge Posada Mariano Rivera David Robertson So out of 23 players, that's 12, or just over half. Admittedly, Matsui and Pettitte are both cheats since Matsui was an established star playing at a high level and was not discovered or developed by the Yankees, and Pettitte left as a free agent before coming back. I wonder how many past World Series champs have developed at least half of the players appearing in the Series? Players appearing in the 2009 World Series for the Yankees that were originally drafted by them (or signed as free agents with the Yankeeas as their first MLB-affiliated organization, e.g. minor-league free agent like Melky Cabrera)

Melky Cabrera
Robinson Cano
Joba Chamberlain
Phil Coke
Brett Gardner
Phil Hughes
Derek Jeter
Hideki Matsui
Andy Pettitte
Jorge Posada
Mariano Rivera
David Robertson

So out of 23 players, that's 12, or just over half. Admittedly, Matsui and Pettitte are both cheats since Matsui was an established star playing at a high level and was not discovered or developed by the Yankees, and Pettitte left as a free agent before coming back.

I wonder how many past World Series champs have developed at least half of the players appearing in the Series?

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