Comments on: Starting and Pinch Running http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/2483 This and that about baseball stats. Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:57:02 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: DoubleDiamond http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/2483/comment-page-1#comment-9076 DoubleDiamond Mon, 14 Sep 2009 01:53:17 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=2483#comment-9076 I realized that I wasn't keeping to the topic but wanted to bring up something that slightly bugs me. And then I didn't even end up putting that into my message! It seems to me that when a pinch hitter comes up for the designated hitter, that guy should be considered a "designated hitter substitution" and should only be shown in the box score as a DH, not as a PH. If a substitution for any other player is done first on defense, the actual position goes into the box score and of course remains with that player if he ends up coming to bat later in the game. But there's no way to substitute defensively for a DH if the team intends to keep the DH in the game. So it seems more logical to me to immediately consider the substitute to be a new DH right away instead of a PH (even though, technically speaking, the substitute is pinch hitting). However, if a pinch runner goes in for a DH (or PH for a DH) after the DH has reached base, then I do agree that this substitute should be referred to as a PR, even if he later comes to bat in the DH spot. At that point, he then becomes the DH. I realized that I wasn't keeping to the topic but wanted to bring up something that slightly bugs me. And then I didn't even end up putting that into my message! It seems to me that when a pinch hitter comes up for the designated hitter, that guy should be considered a "designated hitter substitution" and should only be shown in the box score as a DH, not as a PH. If a substitution for any other player is done first on defense, the actual position goes into the box score and of course remains with that player if he ends up coming to bat later in the game. But there's no way to substitute defensively for a DH if the team intends to keep the DH in the game. So it seems more logical to me to immediately consider the substitute to be a new DH right away instead of a PH (even though, technically speaking, the substitute is pinch hitting).

However, if a pinch runner goes in for a DH (or PH for a DH) after the DH has reached base, then I do agree that this substitute should be referred to as a PR, even if he later comes to bat in the DH spot. At that point, he then becomes the DH.

]]> By: Andy http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/2483/comment-page-1#comment-9008 Andy Fri, 11 Sep 2009 00:52:18 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=2483#comment-9008 Re: #3, all you say is true but that's the case of one DH replacing another. In Raphy's find above, the game started with a DH hitting for the pitcher, and then the manager chose to STOP using a DH, in which case the pitcher resumed playing on offense for himself. In cases where an AL team loses its DH, this usually manifests itself either by the pitcher coming up to bat, or a pinch-hitter coming up to bat when the pitcher's spot comes up next. Because the DH happened to be on the base paths when the manager decided to forfeit the DH, Atherton took the field. He gets credited as a pinch-runner because that's the closest thing available in a typical boxscore. But in reality, he wasn't so much pinch-hitting as just taking his normal position once the DH was removed. In my opinion, this is a great discovery by Raphy. Re: #3, all you say is true but that's the case of one DH replacing another. In Raphy's find above, the game started with a DH hitting for the pitcher, and then the manager chose to STOP using a DH, in which case the pitcher resumed playing on offense for himself. In cases where an AL team loses its DH, this usually manifests itself either by the pitcher coming up to bat, or a pinch-hitter coming up to bat when the pitcher's spot comes up next. Because the DH happened to be on the base paths when the manager decided to forfeit the DH, Atherton took the field.

He gets credited as a pinch-runner because that's the closest thing available in a typical boxscore. But in reality, he wasn't so much pinch-hitting as just taking his normal position once the DH was removed.

In my opinion, this is a great discovery by Raphy.

]]> By: DoubleDiamond http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/2483/comment-page-1#comment-9006 DoubleDiamond Fri, 11 Sep 2009 00:39:19 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=2483#comment-9006 Normally, a player who pinch hits, or I guess pinch runs, for the starting DH is considered to be a pinch hitter, or pinch runner, at the time. If the DH spot comes up again, and the player who pinch hit, or pinch ran, earlier takes his turn at bat, he is then considered to be the DH. I've seen lots of box scores over the years like the following (made-up names and box score lines): Smith DH 3-0-0-0 Jones PH-DH 2-0-1-0 The first of Jones' two at-bats was as a pinch hitter for Smith. The second time, he was considered to be the DH. Normally, a player who pinch hits, or I guess pinch runs, for the starting DH is considered to be a pinch hitter, or pinch runner, at the time. If the DH spot comes up again, and the player who pinch hit, or pinch ran, earlier takes his turn at bat, he is then considered to be the DH. I've seen lots of box scores over the years like the following (made-up names and box score lines):

Smith DH 3-0-0-0
Jones PH-DH 2-0-1-0

The first of Jones' two at-bats was as a pinch hitter for Smith. The second time, he was considered to be the DH.

]]> By: Raphy http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/2483/comment-page-1#comment-8996 Raphy Thu, 10 Sep 2009 17:02:20 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=2483#comment-8996 " <blockquote>Q: How did Atherton start the game? A: He did not. When you look more closely, you'll see that Atherton is listed as a substitute pitcher first, a substitute runner second, and a relief pitcher third"</blockquote> I never said that Atherton started. Read the last paragraph. Unless you have another explanation of how a player can pinch run when he is already in the game, the logic should hold true. "

Q: How did Atherton start the game?

A: He did not. When you look more closely, you'll see that Atherton is listed as a substitute pitcher first, a substitute runner second, and a relief pitcher third"

I never said that Atherton started. Read the last paragraph. Unless you have another explanation of how a player can pinch run when he is already in the game, the logic should hold true.

]]> By: Wooden U. Lykteneau http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/2483/comment-page-1#comment-8979 Wooden U. Lykteneau Thu, 10 Sep 2009 12:43:03 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=2483#comment-8979 Q: How did Atherton start the game? A: He did not. <i>When</i> you look more closely, you'll see that Atherton is listed as a substitute pitcher first, a substitute runner second, and a relief pitcher third, <b>as directed by rule 10.03(b)</b>: <blockquote>(b) The official scorer shall identify in the official score report any player who enters the game as a substitute batter or substitute runner, whether or not such player continues in the game thereafter, in the batting order by a special symbol that shall refer to a separate record of substitute batters and runners. The record of substitute batters shall describe what the substitute batter did. The record of substitute batters and runners shall include the name of any such substitute whose name is announced, but who is removed for another substitute before he actually gets into the game. Any such second substitute shall be recorded as batting or running for the first announced substitute.</blockquote> Q: How did Atherton start the game?

A: He did not. When you look more closely, you'll see that Atherton is listed as a substitute pitcher first, a substitute runner second, and a relief pitcher third, as directed by rule 10.03(b):

(b) The official scorer shall identify in the official score report any player who enters the game as a substitute batter or substitute runner, whether or not such player continues in the game thereafter, in the batting order by a special symbol that shall refer to a separate record of substitute batters and runners. The record of substitute batters shall describe what the substitute batter did. The record of substitute batters and runners shall include the name of any such substitute whose name is announced, but who is removed for another substitute before he actually gets into the game. Any such second substitute shall be recorded as batting or running for the first announced substitute.

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