Comments on: Derek Jeter–greatest Yankee ever? http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/2290 This and that about baseball stats. Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:57:02 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: jksesq1 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/2290/comment-page-1#comment-8647 jksesq1 Thu, 27 Aug 2009 00:40:34 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=2290#comment-8647 Here is my list of the 20 SS's with greater careers than Jeter's: Wagner, Ripken, Rodriguez... I guess Ernie Banks if you want to call him a shortstop.... Hmm I think I'm done. Not that I particularly like Jeter or the Yankees (I don't) but it is an impressive body of work. Here is my list of the 20 SS's with greater careers than Jeter's: Wagner, Ripken, Rodriguez... I guess Ernie Banks if you want to call him a shortstop.... Hmm I think I'm done.

Not that I particularly like Jeter or the Yankees (I don't) but it is an impressive body of work.

]]> By: Andy http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/2290/comment-page-1#comment-8646 Andy Thu, 27 Aug 2009 00:40:07 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=2290#comment-8646 Also when Jeter batted second, keep in mind the caliber of playing hitting ahead of him: Damon, Lofton, Soriano, Knoblauch, Raines....pretty good set of guys to hit behind. Also when Jeter batted second, keep in mind the caliber of playing hitting ahead of him: Damon, Lofton, Soriano, Knoblauch, Raines....pretty good set of guys to hit behind.

]]> By: Andy http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/2290/comment-page-1#comment-8645 Andy Thu, 27 Aug 2009 00:33:06 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=2290#comment-8645 True, but recall that Jeter has spent way more time batting 2nd than leadoff in his career (5788 PAs batting 2nd, 2668 PAs batting first, and roughly 1000 PAs batting in other spots in the lineup.) See here: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=jeterde01&year=Career&t=b#lineu True, but recall that Jeter has spent way more time batting 2nd than leadoff in his career (5788 PAs batting 2nd, 2668 PAs batting first, and roughly 1000 PAs batting in other spots in the lineup.)

See here:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=jeterde01&year=Career&t=b#lineu

]]> By: Devon http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/2290/comment-page-1#comment-8644 Devon Thu, 27 Aug 2009 00:31:20 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=2290#comment-8644 10th in RBI's is very impressive for a leadoff hitter who's still got a few years left, on a list that includes the likes of Ruth, Mantle, Gehrig, etc 10th in RBI's is very impressive for a leadoff hitter who's still got a few years left, on a list that includes the likes of Ruth, Mantle, Gehrig, etc

]]> By: JohnnyTwisto http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/2290/comment-page-1#comment-8632 JohnnyTwisto Wed, 26 Aug 2009 02:53:52 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=2290#comment-8632 Tomepp, Yankee fans definitely welcomed A-Rod initially. The day after the team traded for him, they sold some ridiculous number of tickets. But he never was able to earn his stripes among most fans because of a (relatively) disappointing first season compounded by poor clutch performance, followed by the 2004 ALCS, followed by his terrible postseasons since then. I don't think being given SS would have made a difference in how he is perceived. You also seem to be going out of your way to knock Jeter. He's a SHORTSTOP, on the greatest franchise in history -- his not being in the top 10 of some offensive categories doesn't mean he's not had a great career. Obviously he's not the greatest Yankee ever, but no one's really arguing that; Andy admitted he doesn't believe that. Who do you think are the ~20 SS in MLB history who are better than him? Tomepp, Yankee fans definitely welcomed A-Rod initially. The day after the team traded for him, they sold some ridiculous number of tickets. But he never was able to earn his stripes among most fans because of a (relatively) disappointing first season compounded by poor clutch performance, followed by the 2004 ALCS, followed by his terrible postseasons since then. I don't think being given SS would have made a difference in how he is perceived.

You also seem to be going out of your way to knock Jeter. He's a SHORTSTOP, on the greatest franchise in history -- his not being in the top 10 of some offensive categories doesn't mean he's not had a great career. Obviously he's not the greatest Yankee ever, but no one's really arguing that; Andy admitted he doesn't believe that.

Who do you think are the ~20 SS in MLB history who are better than him?

]]> By: tomepp http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/2290/comment-page-1#comment-8631 tomepp Wed, 26 Aug 2009 01:43:43 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=2290#comment-8631 Andy: Actually, I think if they had done it correctly, it could have actually <i>enhanced</i> Jeter’s reputation as the team leader. If Jeter had volunteered to move to third base so that the Yankees could acquire A-Rod (or at least if the team and media had couched it that way), it would have made Jeter look like the magnanimous one, the guy who would do anything to make his team better. Not only that, but the gesture of Jeter welcoming A-Rod by giving him his position might also have given A-Rod a better chance of getting a more favorable opinion among the Yankee fan base – at least initially. I do agree that it probably would not be beneficial to have them exchange at this point; what’s done is done. Everyone: As to Jeter’s getting 3000 hits with one team, hits alone do not a great player make. You’ll notice that Jeter does not make the top 10 Yankees lists in On-Base Percent, Slugging, or OPS. Though he ranks fourth in doubles, he will have more PA than any of the three ahead of him by week’s end (and Gehrig has 100 more 2B). Similarly, by week’s end he’ll have more PA than any of the ten guys tied or ahead of him on the Yankee HR leader list (and Mantle – the only one with more PA – has 300+ more HR in < 300 more PA). The same goes with Bases on Balls; five of the six guys ahead off him on the list have done it in fewer PA (again, Mantle is the exception, but has 850+ more BB in < 300 more PA). A-Rod, on the other hand, misses the Yankee top 10 in BA only by .006, but ranks 6th on OBP, 4th in SLG, 5th in OPS, and despite nearly 6000 fewer PA as a Yankee, is already ahead of Jeter in HR and only 29 behind him in Adjusted Batting Runs. The bottom line is that Jeter’s been a Yankee for a long time in an era with more games on the schedule (than the Ruth / Gehrig teams, anyway). Give him credit for longevity and consistency, but don’t try to sell me the idea that that makes him the greatest Yankee ever. Andy: Actually, I think if they had done it correctly, it could have actually enhanced Jeter’s reputation as the team leader. If Jeter had volunteered to move to third base so that the Yankees could acquire A-Rod (or at least if the team and media had couched it that way), it would have made Jeter look like the magnanimous one, the guy who would do anything to make his team better. Not only that, but the gesture of Jeter welcoming A-Rod by giving him his position might also have given A-Rod a better chance of getting a more favorable opinion among the Yankee fan base – at least initially.

I do agree that it probably would not be beneficial to have them exchange at this point; what’s done is done.

Everyone: As to Jeter’s getting 3000 hits with one team, hits alone do not a great player make. You’ll notice that Jeter does not make the top 10 Yankees lists in On-Base Percent, Slugging, or OPS. Though he ranks fourth in doubles, he will have more PA than any of the three ahead of him by week’s end (and Gehrig has 100 more 2B). Similarly, by week’s end he’ll have more PA than any of the ten guys tied or ahead of him on the Yankee HR leader list (and Mantle – the only one with more PA – has 300+ more HR in < 300 more PA). The same goes with Bases on Balls; five of the six guys ahead off him on the list have done it in fewer PA (again, Mantle is the exception, but has 850+ more BB in < 300 more PA).

A-Rod, on the other hand, misses the Yankee top 10 in BA only by .006, but ranks 6th on OBP, 4th in SLG, 5th in OPS, and despite nearly 6000 fewer PA as a Yankee, is already ahead of Jeter in HR and only 29 behind him in Adjusted Batting Runs.

The bottom line is that Jeter’s been a Yankee for a long time in an era with more games on the schedule (than the Ruth / Gehrig teams, anyway). Give him credit for longevity and consistency, but don’t try to sell me the idea that that makes him the greatest Yankee ever.

]]> By: gerry http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/2290/comment-page-1#comment-8629 gerry Wed, 26 Aug 2009 00:44:02 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=2290#comment-8629 Jeter both the most overrated and the most underrated player of all time? I think Pete Rose may have that distinction. Common opinions on him range from best hitter of all time to a guy who wouldn't belong in the Hall of Fame even if it weren't for the gambling thing. Nolan Ryan is another one who draws extreme opinions. Jeter both the most overrated and the most underrated player of all time? I think Pete Rose may have that distinction. Common opinions on him range from best hitter of all time to a guy who wouldn't belong in the Hall of Fame even if it weren't for the gambling thing. Nolan Ryan is another one who draws extreme opinions.

]]> By: Raphy http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/2290/comment-page-1#comment-8628 Raphy Wed, 26 Aug 2009 00:08:58 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=2290#comment-8628 jksesq1 you got the 300 win guys. This also interested me, as well. This link has the 2 lists that you provided and also the 500+ home run guys. It it updated through last September 7th. http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/774 jksesq1 you got the 300 win guys. This also interested me, as well. This link has the 2 lists that you provided and also the 500+ home run guys. It it updated through last September 7th.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/774

]]> By: kingturtle http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/2290/comment-page-1#comment-8626 kingturtle Tue, 25 Aug 2009 21:55:26 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=2290#comment-8626 I made a very simple arithmetic-based system to determine offensive players of the year, and the same system can be applied to this situation. Look at the NY Yankees Career Leaders in BA, Rs, TBs, RBIs, BBs, and SBs. Give 10 Points for 1st place, 9 for 2nd place, etc. etc. Ruth is 1st in BA, 1st in Rs, 1st in TBs, 2nd in RBIs and 1st in BBs. That's 10+10+10+9+10=49. With that simple system, the ten best all-time Yankees offensively are: 1. Ruth (49), 2. Gehrig (45), 3. Mantle (34), 4. Jeter (33), 5. DiMaggio (28), 6. B. Williams (22), 7. Randolph (16), 8. Berra (13), 9. R. White (11), 10. Dickey (10), 10. R. Henderson (10). This is in no way a fool-proof way, but interesting nonetheless (at least to me). Another thing to look at is rings. Berra had 10!, DiMaggio 9, Mantle 7, Gehrig 6, and Ruth 4. Jeter has 4, too. I made a very simple arithmetic-based system to determine offensive players of the year, and the same system can be applied to this situation. Look at the NY Yankees Career Leaders in BA, Rs, TBs, RBIs, BBs, and SBs. Give 10 Points for 1st place, 9 for 2nd place, etc. etc. Ruth is 1st in BA, 1st in Rs, 1st in TBs, 2nd in RBIs and 1st in BBs. That's 10+10+10+9+10=49. With that simple system, the ten best all-time Yankees offensively are: 1. Ruth (49), 2. Gehrig (45), 3. Mantle (34), 4. Jeter (33), 5. DiMaggio (28), 6. B. Williams (22), 7. Randolph (16), 8. Berra (13), 9. R. White (11), 10. Dickey (10), 10. R. Henderson (10). This is in no way a fool-proof way, but interesting nonetheless (at least to me).

Another thing to look at is rings. Berra had 10!, DiMaggio 9, Mantle 7, Gehrig 6, and Ruth 4. Jeter has 4, too.

]]> By: jksesq1 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/2290/comment-page-1#comment-8623 jksesq1 Tue, 25 Aug 2009 20:28:32 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=2290#comment-8623 Interesting list and discussion. Here is the very short list of players who have 3000 hits with one franchise (just missing the list: Wagner, Anson and Sam Rice): 1. Cobb, Tigers, 3900 2. Musial, Cards, 3630 3. Aaron, Braves, 3600 4. Yastrzemski, Red Sox, 3419 5. Rose, Reds, 3358 6T. Mays, Giants, and Ripken, O's, 3187 8. Brett, Royals, 3154 9. Yount, Brewers, 3142 10. Gwynn, Padres, 3141 11. Biggio, Astros, 3060 12. Kaline, Tigers, 3007 13. Clemente, Pirates 3000 Jeter should be #14 on this list assuming he stays healthy and with the Yankees through 2011. BTW a while back I checked to see who had 300 wins with one team, it was a very short list, as I recall only Spahn, Nichols, Big Train and Christy Mathewson. I may be missing someone but I think it was just the four. Interesting list and discussion. Here is the very short list of players who have 3000 hits with one franchise (just missing the list: Wagner, Anson and Sam Rice):
1. Cobb, Tigers, 3900
2. Musial, Cards, 3630
3. Aaron, Braves, 3600
4. Yastrzemski, Red Sox, 3419
5. Rose, Reds, 3358
6T. Mays, Giants, and Ripken, O's, 3187
8. Brett, Royals, 3154
9. Yount, Brewers, 3142
10. Gwynn, Padres, 3141
11. Biggio, Astros, 3060
12. Kaline, Tigers, 3007
13. Clemente, Pirates 3000

Jeter should be #14 on this list assuming he stays healthy and with the Yankees through 2011.

BTW a while back I checked to see who had 300 wins with one team, it was a very short list, as I recall only Spahn, Nichols, Big Train and Christy Mathewson. I may be missing someone but I think it was just the four.

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