Comments on: Poll: 2011 National League MVP http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/15417 This and that about baseball stats. Tue, 16 Jul 2013 17:01:55 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.6 By: Steve B http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/15417/comment-page-1#comment-165016 Sat, 08 Oct 2011 00:48:41 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=15417#comment-165016 As a Dodger fan, I watched Kemp very closely during the latter part of the season. Having gotten over his sub-par performance in the homerun derby, he was having an absolute blast enjoying his new-found celebrity, seemingly unaffected by the pressure of having to lead his team to a playoff berth.

Ask yourselves what separates the great athletes in any sport from other athletes with similar talent. The answer, of course, is the ability to perform under pressure (something Tiger Woods used to be good at . . .). As such, I feel that hitting a homerun or stealing a base when you're trying to get into the playoffs or establish home field advantage is more of an accomplishment than doing so if you’re playing for the Dodgers in 2011. So if winning the MVP award has anything to do with the value of one’s accomplishments, then - objectively - I'd have to give it to Braun.

As an additional point: If I had to choose one player over the other to have on my team at this stage in their careers, I’d choose Braun, who is a perennial MVP caliber player . . . whereas Kemp has only just emerged as a player of Braun’s mettle.

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By: Thomas http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/15417/comment-page-1#comment-163401 Wed, 05 Oct 2011 22:43:50 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=15417#comment-163401 I wonder who Willie Mays would choose as MVP - Kemp or Braun?

As a baseball fan from the old Dodger-Giant-Yankee rivalries of the 50's and 60's, Kemp is a throwback to the era of baseball's greatest centerfielders - Mays, Mantle and Snider.

He is simply awesome!

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By: Korey http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/15417/comment-page-1#comment-163394 Wed, 05 Oct 2011 22:27:48 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=15417#comment-163394 Kemp's near-miss Triple Crown (.013 BA points short), near-miss 40/40 (1 homer short), and superior defense in a premium position EASILY surpasses Braun,Fielder, Pujols and Upton performances. (Never mind his WAR superiority). He clearly deserves the MVP for the most exciting Triple Crown chase in all of baseball since 1967. To suggest that is not meaningful or valuable is absurd. While it may not have value for the eventual WS champs, it had tremendous value for MLB and fans all across the country.

Verlander CLEARLY DOES NOT deserve two awards at the expense of Tiger teammates Jose Valverde and Miguel Cabrera. Valverde was credited with saves in 14 of Verlander's 24 wins. Where would Verlander be if Valverde hadn't been there to save his a** 14 times? If he was so dominant, why was he taken out in favor of Valverde? (Answer: Because Leyland believed Valverde was the lesser risk. Leyland was right all fourteen times). Valverde then saved 35 other games that Verlander DID NOT EVEN APPEAR in. Where would the Tigers be if Carbera hadn't produced offensively all year? Migue'd numbers: 161 games, 111 Runs, 197 hits, 30 HR , 105 RBI. .344 BA (MLB best) , 1.033 OPS (MLB 2nd best). Compare to Braun's numbers then tell me why Braun deserves MVP in NL, but Cabrera doesn't in AL.

Contending team bigots: Please explain Cal Ripken's MVP in 1991 on a 6th place Baltimore team. How valuable could he have been? Did he keep them out of 7th (last) place? I see how you can dismiss Kemp's performance. But please explain dismissing Fielder, Valverde and Cabrera whose numbers on same division winners match your selections I also understand that the stats for Berkman, Upton, and Howard are inferior, but why don't they rate as high or higher on your still undefined intrinsic value scale as Braun or Verlander? It seems you use or discard stats AND intrinsic when it is convenient.

East coast bigots: Please explain Jimmy Rollins MVP in 2007 over Cardinal's Matt Holiday. (Their numbers are not even close). Someone mentioned Dodger bias. Are they saying Fernandez' 1981 CY, Gibson's 1988 MVP or Hershiser's 1988 CY were biased selections? Are they kidding? All three performances were extraordinary AND the Dodgers won pennants, playoffs and World Series in both years. These were the ONLY Dodger awards in the last 30 years.

White guy bigots: How can you totally dismiss Valverde's 49 saves out of 49 opportunities in favor of teammate Verlander? Have you compared Valverde's stats to Eckersly's 1991 CY/MVP season? or Hernandez' 1984 CY/MVP season?

White guy bigots: How can you totally dismiss M. Cabrera's MLB best BA of .344 in favor of teammate Verlander? Have you compared his numbers to say, likely NL MVP Braun's numbers, or, for that matter, most of the previous AL/NL MVP winners over the last ten years? Only Barry Bonds' steroid era numbers clearly surpass Cabrera's.

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By: Thomas http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/15417/comment-page-1#comment-162246 Tue, 04 Oct 2011 02:23:53 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=15417#comment-162246 "Value" in MVP is much too vague a criteria. It simply encourages any homer, bigot or otherwise biased person to invent value stats.Let's face it. Some prefer the the dubious value of "white guys". Others prefer black guy "value". Still others prefer Latino "value". My read of historical Cy Young winners suggest such bias was minimized by not encouraging personal bias. A similar read of historical MVP winners suggests that "value" is usually ascribed to the white guy. A perfect example is Cal Ripken's MVP selection in 1991 over Frank Thomas. Ripken's Baltimore finished 6th in a 7 team division (67 wins, 95 losses). Thomas had similar numvers for the 2nd place White Sox, but the value pretzel was twisted conveniently that year to reward the white contender. Same thing this year for Justin Verlander. He adds all the "value" to Detroit. Latino Jose Valverde (best reliever in baseball - 49 saves of 49 opportunities) adds little value to Detroit per value bigots. Miguel Cabrera (best BA in baseball, excellent year in HR,RBI,etc. ) likewise adds little value to Detroit
per value bigots. Both contributed in more winning games than Verlander.
So much for pretending value is anything but a permissiive, subjective term.
MLB should be ashamed.

The only real measure of "value" is runs scored (offense) and opponent putouts(defense). All runs and outs have the same value no matter how achieved. The most valuable player is the one who produced the most runs and the most opponent outs in the most games. I guarantee that if you field consistent leaders (read most valuable) at each position in those categories you will win the bulk of your games, pennants and WS.Any of definition of value is a pretext at best and a copout at worst..

My proof is simple. The definition of value will change only when MLB opts to have umpires and/or writers VOTE on runs, outs and errors based on the individual and team style points that so many posters count as "value"

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By: tim http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/15417/comment-page-1#comment-160946 Sat, 01 Oct 2011 14:56:32 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=15417#comment-160946 MVP and Cy Young from the third-place Dodgers. Interesting. They did finish above .500. Only complaint is with all these people that want to base their decisions entirely on WAR. That's a made-up stat, folks, base it on real stats.

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By: Johnny Twisto http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/15417/comment-page-1#comment-160829 Sat, 01 Oct 2011 03:53:43 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=15417#comment-160829 After running some numbers and doing some studying, I've decided to vote for Kemp, narrowly over Braun. I do consider pennant race impact. I can't fault anyone who goes for Braun. I do think those two appear ahead of the other position players. I'm still not comfortable with how to compare them to pitchers.

Haven't finished my ballot yet, and still haven't looked at the AL. Not enough hours in the day.....

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By: tim http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/15417/comment-page-1#comment-160689 Fri, 30 Sep 2011 22:02:43 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=15417#comment-160689 I think the player with the most RBI is the MVP. The criteria for that award seems to change every couple of years.

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By: tim http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/15417/comment-page-1#comment-160687 Fri, 30 Sep 2011 22:00:55 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=15417#comment-160687 Cy Young Awards should be easy to pick. Pitcher Triple Crown winners in both leagues (Verlander, Kershaw). Hardly heard anything about that. I wonder when the last time that happened was, although I could've just looked it up on Baseball Reference before I wrote this, but didn't.

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By: Johnny Twisto http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/15417/comment-page-1#comment-160634 Fri, 30 Sep 2011 20:01:58 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=15417#comment-160634 Feelings are allowed in baseball, right? It's not like I'm crying.

Feelings inevitably lead to crying. Probably safer to just opt for the lobotomy now.

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By: Joseph http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/15417/comment-page-1#comment-160555 Fri, 30 Sep 2011 17:12:14 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=15417#comment-160555 And by the way, the player who perhaps seems to be most important to his team (which I will leave to the stat heads to explain why it's not really that way), is Pujols.

The Cards had a .533 WP first half and a .586 WP second half. And Pujols played lots better after the all star break, I think. The Cards made the playoffs despite the respective nose-dives of Holliday and Berkman.

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