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Shhh….Andruw Jones is slugging again….but don’t tell anyone!

Posted by Andy on August 29, 2011

Nobody seems to like Andruw Jones anymore. Braves fans choose to remember the 19-year-old who hit a couple of World Series homers against the Yankees, or the guy who led the league in homers and RBI in 2005. Dodgers fans, understandably, still have nightmares about him--the guy who hit .158/.256/.249 for them in 2008. Rangers fans recall a guy who hit a few homers but still batted just .214.

Last year, Jones put together a nice season in limited duty with the White Sox. This year, the Yankees have followed the same strategy, and look what it has gotten them:

  • Slash line of .254/.354/.514, as compared with his career numbers of .256/.339/.488. That's right--he's got a higher OBP and SLG despite playing in the heart of the steroids era.
  • 11 HR and 28 RBI in 164 PAs. He couldn't maintain that over 600 PAs, but if he did they'd project to 40 HR and 102 RBI.
  • An OPS+ of 128, a career high except for that insane 2005 (again, though, over a pretty small number of plate appearances.)
This is for a guy who made $500,000 with the White Sox last year and just $2 million with the Yankees this year. The biggest knock on him is that he can't be an every day player any more. But at such a low price, as long as his team can afford the roster spot for a part-timer, he's a great asset.

 

 

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61 Responses to “Shhh….Andruw Jones is slugging again….but don’t tell anyone!”

  1. Andy; How about a piece on complimentary hitters-175-250 plate appearances, OPS+ of 125 or more, and not regulars who missed a major part of the season to injury.
    Dusty Rhodes from 1954 184 PA, 15 HR, 50 RBI, .341/.410/.695 OPS+181

  2. Andy - you have his slugging slash as .868 but that's his OPS. His slugging is .514 still pretty good but not Ruthian.

  3. Fix it, thanks.

  4. You put down his OPS, not his SLG. He's slugging .514

  5. And I meant to say fixed it, thanks to both Steve and Pat.

  6. Nice platoon bat, but as a RHB he's at the short-end of the platoon. Not as many LHP's as RHP's.

  7. Andy, if you took out Andruw's production in three blow out games this season out of his season's stats, what would the numbers look like for him in 2011?

    IIRC, Jones did major damage this year on July 14th and July 30th. He also had a HR in one AB in the 22-9 game on August 25th.

    What has he done outside of those 10 garbage time PA?

  8. I don't know, Steve, but were we to calculate his OPS+ for the rest of his games, we'd need to discount all the other garbage-time HRs across the league.

  9. @7, 8 Here are the players similar to Jones in OPS+ and PA since 1981 sorted by WPA. Steve may have a point that Jones has been less valuable than his stats suggest.

    Rk Player WPA OPS+ PA Year Age Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB IBB SO HBP SH SF GDP SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS Pos
    1 Bob Watson 1.920 131 170 1983 37 ATL NL 65 149 14 46 9 0 6 37 18 3 23 0 0 3 5 0 2 .309 .376 .490 .866 *3
    2 Todd Pratt 1.644 132 156 2003 36 PHI NL 43 125 16 34 10 1 4 20 22 0 38 6 1 2 3 0 0 .272 .400 .464 .864 *2/3
    3 Rickie Weeks 1.624 125 162 2009 26 MIL NL 37 147 28 40 5 2 9 24 12 0 39 3 0 0 1 2 2 .272 .340 .517 .857 *4
    4 Gene Tenace 1.329 131 174 1981 34 STL NL 58 129 26 30 7 0 5 22 38 2 26 4 1 2 1 0 0 .233 .416 .403 .819 *2/3
    5 Rusty Kuntz 1.245 125 168 1984 29 DET AL 84 140 32 40 12 0 2 22 25 1 28 1 0 2 2 2 2 .286 .393 .414 .807 987D
    6 Jim Morrison 0.958 127 174 1983 30 PIT NL 66 158 16 48 7 2 6 25 9 1 25 2 4 1 3 2 6 .304 .347 .487 .834 45/6
    7 Ramon Santiago 0.950 129 156 2008 28 DET AL 58 124 30 35 6 2 4 18 22 0 17 5 5 0 1 1 0 .282 .411 .460 .870 *64/5
    8 Gregg Zaun 0.885 130 172 1997 26 FLA NL 58 143 21 43 10 2 2 20 26 4 18 2 1 0 3 1 0 .301 .415 .441 .856 *2/3
    9 Lee Mazzilli 0.801 125 163 1989 34 TOT ML 76 126 22 26 5 0 6 18 34 1 35 2 0 1 2 5 0 .206 .380 .389 .769 D3/978
    10 Trot Nixon 0.773 123 167 2004 30 BOS AL 48 149 24 47 9 1 6 23 15 1 24 1 0 2 3 0 0 .315 .377 .510 .887 *9/D
    11 Johnny Grubb 0.744 124 165 1983 34 DET AL 57 134 20 34 5 2 4 22 28 1 17 2 0 1 5 0 0 .254 .388 .410 .798 9D/75
    12 Greg Colbrunn 0.737 128 153 1999 29 ARI NL 67 135 20 44 5 3 5 24 12 0 23 4 0 2 3 1 1 .326 .392 .519 .911 *3/D5
    13 Oscar Salazar 0.427 132 154 2009 31 TOT ML 72 139 16 42 8 2 5 25 14 1 20 0 0 1 8 0 0 .302 .364 .496 .860 7/35946D
    14 Andres Torres 0.339 126 170 2009 31 SFG NL 75 152 30 41 6 8 6 23 16 0 45 1 1 0 0 6 1 .270 .343 .533 .876 87/9
    15 Matt Murton 0.120 132 160 2005 23 CHC NL 51 140 19 45 3 2 7 14 16 4 22 0 2 2 4 2 1 .321 .386 .521 .908 *7
    16 Ramon Castro 0.072 126 157 2007 31 NYM NL 52 144 24 41 6 0 11 31 10 0 39 1 0 2 1 0 0 .285 .331 .556 .887 *2
    17 Andruw Jones 0.067 128 164 2011 34 NYY AL 60 142 20 36 4 0 11 28 20 0 45 2 0 0 3 0 0 .254 .354 .514 .868 7D9
    18 Chris James -0.098 128 159 1994 31 TEX AL 52 133 28 34 8 4 7 19 20 0 38 3 1 2 3 0 0 .256 .361 .534 .895 *9/7
    19 Matt Stairs -0.174 127 158 1996 28 OAK AL 61 137 21 38 5 1 10 23 19 2 23 1 0 1 2 1 1 .277 .367 .547 .915 97/D3
    20 Charlie Moore -0.430 124 171 1981 28 MIL AL 48 156 16 47 8 3 1 9 12 0 13 0 3 0 4 1 4 .301 .351 .410 .761 *2/D97
    Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
    Generated 8/29/2011.
  10. Plus, I wouldn't want to count July 14th as garbage. He almost single-handedly put the Yankees back in the game as a 9-0 game became 9-7 before the bullpen made it a laugher again. And you'd have to count his first PA of the July 30th game because it wasn't a laugher when he doubled in the first to make it 3-0.

    He's got 4 HR in the last six games. I figured that was what the blogpost was for.

  11. Lawrence Azrin Says:

    @1/ Mike L. - PART-TIME PRODUCTIVE HITTERS:
    In 1961, Jerry Lynch of the pennant-winning Reds had very similar stats to Dusty Rhodes/1954. In 96 games/ 210 PA (he started 44 games in the OF), Lynch had:

    181 AB, 33R, 57 hits, 13HR, 50RBI, .315/.407/.624, OPS+ 167

    He even finished 22nd in the MVP race, Rhodes finished 26th in 1954. Rhodes had 2.3 WAR, Lynch 1.7 WAR.

    In 1953 Ted Williams only had 110 PA in 37 games/26 starts, but finished 26th in the MVP voting. stats:
    .407/.509/.901 13 HR, 34 RBI, 2.2 WAR

    Too bad the Korean War got in his way...

  12. he's a good asset. I don't think I'd go as far as saying great. He's got a +0.6 wins above replacement in platoon duty. Which ranks him just behind Hector Noesi on the Yankees. Not every team has a solid righty bat on the bench. He has a role.

  13. @Mike L.: Checking in with 174 PA was the 1991 incarnation of Phil Plantier, who mashed to a tune of .331/.420/.615/1.034, 178 OPS+

  14. Lawrence Azrin Says:

    @13/ Jason Winter - I remember the 1991 exploits of Plantier quite well, a lot of Red Sox fans were guessing how many career HR he would hit; the consensus was 300-400.

    I think he fell a little short of that (although he had a nice 1993 season with the Padres).

  15. Non-Yankee fans also have to take note of their recent history, particularly in the Brian Cashman-era. One of Cashman's bigger weaknesses has always been his bad habit of ignoring the bench going into the season. He would usually address this by claiming he would assess the roster and make changes as the need arises and the season progresses. Outside of acquiring Jerry Hairston, Jr. in 2009, this rarely seemed to happen.

    This is one of the few years he addressed the bench actively going into the season and Jones was acquired solely for the purpose of being an experienced bench player with a good glove and decent bat. I'd have to say that considering what Andruw was brought in to do, it proved to be a good move and one of Cashman's better off-season acquisitions during his tenure because it lived up almost exactly to expectations.

    Plus, all this talk of his "garbage-time" numbers doesn't seem fair. He's a bench player and for the limited time he's played, he's had a representative amount of key hits. If you were grading the 2011 Yankees so far, he would have to be near the top of the class.

  16. Kahuna Tuna Says:

    Base Out Runs Added (RE24), 2011 Yankees, excluding hitters with fewer than 10 plate appearances:

    Granderson: 578 PA, 41.1 RE24 (5th in the AL behind Bautista, Cabrera, A. González and Ellsbury; no other hitter has more than 32)
    Canó: 557 PA, 29.3 RE24
    Teixeira: 579 PA, 27.7 RE24
    Swisher: 534 PA, 16.5 RE24
    Rodriguez: 363 PA, 13.6 RE24
    Jones: 164 PA, 6.7 RE24
    Jeter: 501 PA, 5.3 RE24
    Martin: 409 PA, 4.1 RE24
    Cervelli: 118 PA, 2.1 RE24
    Dickerson: 31 PA, 1.7 RE24
    Chavez: 113 PA, 1.4 RE24
    Núñez: 268 PA, -2.7 RE24
    Peña: 29 PA, -3.8 RE24
    Posada: 345 PA, -5 RE24
    Gardner: 487 PA, -5.7 RE24
    Team Total: 5115 PA, 126.9 RE24

    I'd go along with Doug's assessment in #12. Jones has a well-defined role in which he is performing solidly. Comparisons to Jerry Lynch '61 or Dusty Rhodes '54 are unwarranted, but Jones is helping his team.

  17. Hi Andy:

    Andruw Jones' wonderful numbers appear to be products of his usage:

    He has 42 plate appearances against righties this season, during which he is .189/.286/.432.

    He has 89 plate appearances on the road this year, during which he is .200/.326/.413.

    He has 45 late inning (7-9) plate appearances this year, during which he is .158/.289/.316.

    He 120 night plate appearances, during which .221/.325/.471.

    Hmm, a right-handed hitter who can't be used against right-handers, on the road, in late innings or at night.

    Does not sound like a terribly useful hitter to me.

    Asher

  18. Asher, yeah. While you're at it, can you please post his splits for day, at home, early in game, and against lefties?

  19. Are readers noticing my hidden comments?

  20. @15, Cashman hasn't ignored the bench in the past; it's just difficult to get quality players to come to a team knowing they're going to sit on the bench. The Yankees will offer a decent contract, but the player is still more likely to go to a team with less of a chance of winning if he can get more playing time since that will lead to more money the following year. Jerry Hairston is a good example. He came to the Yankees mid-way through 2009, won a World Series, but left specifically because he didn't think he'd get many ABs on the Yankees. Players have a limited playing window, so playing time is the important path to making money. The "problem" with a team fielding an all-star lineup is it provides less time for the bench.

    Last year the Yankees had Marcus Thames, who provided the bat against lefthanded pitchers, but may have been the single worst defensive OFer I've ever seen, limiting his use. Jones, while no longer the great fielder he was in his youth, is still solid, so he's a more helpful bench player than Thames.

    Cashman was knocked for bringing in Jones and Chavez and Colon and Garcia. He was right. Those who criticized the moves were wrong, with the best they can come up with is things like Jones hits "garbage time" HRs. I agree with you. He's a bench player who has about 140 ABs. He's more than done his job.

  21. @19, Andy, the hidden comments are quite obvious and relate to what I wrote above. Those breaking down a bench player's ABs into statistically meaningless thirty and forty AB segments are missing the point and have no understanding of what Jones' role is. He's a bench player who comes in to rest the everyday OFers and provide some quality ABs against lefthanded pitchers. That's what he was signed to do and that's exactly what he's doing. I guess some want him to be Willie Mays.

  22. Am I the only one who think Andrew Jones should be way older than 34?

  23. Hi Asher,

    Stats aside, I watch the games and can attest to the fact that Jones has been a very valuable member of the team off the bench. I know Baseball-Reference.com is not the best place to make this argument, but sometimes the numbers don't tell the whole story.

    It's true his numbers are weaker against righties, I'll give you that, but Girardi has wisely limited his at-bats against them when possible. How many of his 45 late inning plate appearances have been in close games? It's not often he's used as a pinch hitter on this team, so it's not often he's up in a clutch situation late in the game. Not that he can't do it, but mostly because the Yankees don't pinch hit too often.

    I don't buy home/road splits with Jones. Those are empty numbers since there's no real reason to explain them. He's not the type of hitter that should be affected by a home park. Maybe he's simply faced better pitchers on the road and it's purely coincidental. His career numbers will attest to that. Same thing with the day/night splits. There's more to the story than pure numbers. For his career, he's been slightly better in day games, but mostly it's about even. There's no reason to suggest anything's changed except for a smaller sampling.

    I believe you'll be hard-pressed to find a lot of Yankee fans who expected more from Jones than what he's delivered. He's been a welcome addition and valuable contributor to the team.

  24. John Autin Says:

    @19, Andy -- I know what you mean, and yes, I am ... but there's still something funny about that sentence construction. :)

    Anyone know term for a question that implies its own answer? I'll always remember this headline from The Onion: "Why Can't I Sell Any of These @#$%ing Bibles?"

  25. @20

    Those who criticized any of those moves (Jones, Chavez, Garcia, Colon) were probably just:
    a) people who are only happy with an all-star at each position and the bench
    b) people who don't realize how important a strong bench is
    c) people who were pissed after losing out on Lee and wanted to make a big move...not realizing there were no big moves left to make.

    Most of what I heard was positive about the Jones and Chavez moves in the offseason.

    Also, very few complained about Garcia or Colon. True, most people expected absolutely nothing from them which is why there were few complaints, but after losing out on Lee, most Yankee fans knew the strategy had changed to, "Let's sign whoever we can and see if any of them pay off." There were those who didn't get this (see "c" above), but I think the fans who are checking for hot stove updates in January beyond the headlines knew they had to sign them.

    That is a good point about Cashman not being able to build the bench in other offseasons because it's difficult to find players happy to fill those roles. However, I do think building a bench to start the season has been historically low on his list of priorities. He's even said so in numerous offseason interviews in the past. But, I'll cut him a little slack...you're right. He was very fortunate to have two quality bench players on the market this season and have Nunez already in the system and took advantage.

  26. #22 Yes! Even though I know damn well that he was 19 in 1996, I somehow still feel like he should be 38 now.

  27. Such a bizarre career Jones has had. Looked like a hall of famer, then all of a sudden became a big time slugger (even looked like a potential 600+ or even 700+ home run guy) then all of a sudden became terrible.

    Then he plays part time and manages 15 homers a year for a while, and is actually hitting better OPS+ wise than he did previously in his career.

    He's still only 34. Has a good shot at 500 homers and is possibly likely a hall of famer based on things he did all before the age of 31. How do you not put a guy in the hall of fame if he has 450+ home runs and 10 gold gloves and no link to steroids? A 50 home run year as well. However, if he keeps putting up years like he has 09-11, his counting stats will become huge (well, really just his home runs, but his star ability and hall of fame career may become almost forgotten.

    But really a very strange player. 10 years of gold glove defense followed by a second half career where he offered no defense. I guess that's somewhat similar to Ken Griffey Jr. And a lot of home runs, quite possibly still going to reach 500 if he hangs around, but he never really offered much else offensively, his BA/OBP is very ordinary at .256/.338, he was never really a base stealer, and always struck out alot.

    Just a very unique career.

  28. @22

    KB, Andruw is the oldest 34 year old OF since Ken Griffey Jr.

  29. so i have a play index question: is there a way i could get it to tell me how many teams have had X players with X home runs? specifically i was looking for at least 3 players with 40+ HR, ala the 96-97 rockies

  30. @1

    Brent Lillibridge worth a mention.

  31. John Autin Says:

    @29, Jim --
    Play Index - Season Finders - Player Batting
    Search Form - Find Teams with Players Matching Criteria (Season)
    Years - choose desired range
    Select Additional Criteria...: HR greater than or equal to X

    That will give you the teams with the most players with X+ HRs.
    (You should find one other team with 3 players at 40+ HRs, besides those 1996-97 Rox.)

  32. @29

    The 96 mariners came close. 49 from Jr, 44 from Buhner, and 36 from Arod.

    In 97 Griffey hit 56, Buhner hit 40, but Arod didn't have the power that year and only hit 23. Paul Sorrento his 31, Edgar hit 28, Russ Davis hit 20, and 3 others on the team also hit at least 11.

    So no answer but I tried off the top of my head without using any search tools. I really thought one of those Seattle teams would've done it when Buhner had 3 straight 40's on a team with Griffey and Arod.

  33. @ JA 24

    I might be wrong, but I believe the technical term is Begging the Question. Not that any really cares . . .

  34. @29 and @32-the 73 Braves- Davey Johnson 43, Darrell Evans 41, and Hank Aaron 40

  35. @27 - All Andruw needs is to have two more full-time years as a front-line player, and he'll be the Kurt Warner of MLB.

  36. I agree that he is doing the job he was hired to do. However, I also think he should get another chance at being an everyday player. Not sure why it seems like a foregone conclusion that he can't. Yes, his .189/.286/.432 isn't pretty for his 42 PA this year, but that's just 42 PA - 2 per week. Hard to stay sharp that way. Last year, he was .219/.327/.453 in 226 PA. Not an all-star, but certainly better than others getting more playing time. I am not a long-time Braves or Andruw fan, but it seems like he's been overly punished (blacklisted?) for the debacle that was 2008.

  37. @36, Tristram -- I'd like to know what contender is currently playing a DH/corner OF with worse production against RHPs than Andruw's combined 2009-11 mark.

    But the only relevant issue is, whom do you think should sit down so that Andruw can play more against RHPs? There's no way Andruw is a more valuable LF against RHPs than Gardner, a more valuable RF against RHPs than Swisher, or a more valuable DH against RHPs than Posada. So then what?

  38. Johnny Twisto Says:

    All Andruw needs is to have two more full-time years as a front-line player, and he'll be the Kurt Warner of MLB.

    I can't see that at all. Warner had 2 or 3 of the greatest seasons of any QB ever (yes, he had a lot of weapons, but I think they were weapons in part because of Warner). (Anyone who knows more about the NFL who wants to convince me that any schmo could have done what Warner did with his supporting cast, feel free.) Add to that his whole pre-NFL history, which I guess has nothing to do with how valuable he was, but a ton to do with his story and who he should be compared to. I don't understand the connection but I'm obviously missing something.

  39. I haven't seen anyone mention yet why a guy like this is about 9462 times more valuable than the 3rd lefty, 13th man in the bullpen. And a banjo hitting, solid glove backup infielder who can run a bit would be 138 times as valuable as the 12 man in the bullpen. And a decent lefty pinch hitting corner man would be about 3 times as valuable as the 11th man. And a third catcher who has a good glove would be a push for the 10th guy...

  40. As someone who has watched every yankee game for 10 years Jone is not what i would consider even an elite bench option. He has had a better career than strawberry but someone like Straw or Fielder or even Tony Clark provided more consistent bench options for the yanks. This post makes me wonder if whoever posted it think AJ has a chance at the Hall. There would be a pretty convincing argument to put him in.

  41. @40, Hartvig -- Hear, hear!

    @41, Liam -- Is it time for an Andruw HOF poll?

  42. Kahuna Tuna Says:

    Anyone know the term for a question that implies its own answer?

    The general term is a leading question. Somehow I'm not sure that your Onion example fits the term, though.

  43. @38 JA - I'm not saying he should start for the Yankees this year, but I think he could justify a sport somewhere next year - and maybe not for a contender. How about SF? Doesn't look like a worse choice than Cody Ross/Nate Schierholtz to me. I just don't think he's done.

  44. The MLB equivalent of Kurt Warner is clearly Larry Walker. Both guys put up awesome MVP-type years in high-offense situations, and both guys finished up with the Cardinals.

  45. Richard Chester Says:

    @43

    It could also be called a rhetorical question.

  46. @45 - I didn't think of that, but I like it. The pre-humidor Rockies were very like the "Greatest Show on Turf" Rams.

    @39 - I thought of Andruw/Warner comparison based on their career arcs. Granted that Warner's is a little steeper because he was bagging groceries and playing Arena League before his NFL breakthrough, but from 99-01 he was an All-Pro; then he fell off the map for a couple of years (mostly from a hurt right thumb that made it impossible for him to really hold or throw the ball reliably); then he was a veteran mentor/backup for the Giants and Cards; and then he won back the starting job and finished with three tremendous years. So, I thought that if Andruw got a full-time gig and raked it the way he did from, say 98-00, then it would complete the parallel. Not that his highs would have been as high as Warner's (except 2005), but I can definitely see a resemblance.

  47. I'm dumbfounded to see that Andruw Jones has a career WAR of 60.1 (almost half of that being from his defense). I thought he's be in the mid-to-high 40s and therefore be an extremely borderline Hall of Fame candidate. Instead, I think he's probably worthy, especially considering he might be the best defensive center fielder in history.

    Though Jones isn't within spitting distance of Jim Edmonds (67.9 WAR) as a hitter, his superb glove probably gives him a better shot at Cooperstown.

  48. It would make a hell of a debate, because I doubt Jones passes many people's "sniff test" but the numbers look a little different.

  49. John Autin Says:

    B-R has Andruw with the 2nd-highest career total of "WAR Runs-Fielding" in the database -- behind Brooks Robinson, but ahead of Belanger, Ozzie, and everyone else.

    I'm not sure exactly how far back that stat has been calculated; I don't see any results before 1947.

    I'm sure a lot of people would balk at trusting WAR-based defensive values, but a great majority of the top 50 in career WAR Runs-Fielding are famous defensive standouts. And of course, Andruw did win those 10 Gold Gloves, so it's not like dWAR is trying to put on a pedestal someone with a mediocre reputation.

    What will be harder for some folks to take at face value is exactly how great he was on defense. Most public Hall of Fame discussions, I think, tend to rate the subject's fielding on a 4-point scale: great, good, OK, bad. It's very rare -- maybe unprecedented? -- for a player to make the HOF with defense making up at least half the argument.

  50. @JA - Ozzie is the first one that comes to mind... he might be the weakest hitter in the hall (non-catching division). A lot of his offensive value was in drawing a lot of walks and his excellent baserunning. Brooks Robinson could hit pretty well (OPS+ of 111 from '59-'74, roughly his peak), but he's over 27 WAR defensively, better than a third of his career total.

    Mazeroski's dWAR is 44% of his overall, but since his selection is rather controversial anyway, he might not be a suitable example.

  51. Lawrence Azrin Says:

    @51/ Nightfly - OZZIE SMITH's OFFENSIVE VALUE:

    If you include baserunning/basestealing in his offensive value, from 1981 to 1996 (end-of-career) Ozzie was about league-average, according to WAR. From 1984-1996, he was about league-average just based on batting WAR. It's those first six years that drag him down.

    For total offensive value, I would say that Maranville, Schalk, and Maz were the weakest HOFers. Of course, we don't have full baserunning info for the first two.

  52. The Yankees lets Berkman go and signed Jones. Berkman signed with the Cards for 8,000,000 and Jones cost 2,000,000.

    Sometines the nunbers that mnatter are not slashes.......they are salaries. For 2,000,000 Jones is a decent value, certainly more then the 2,000,000 that the Mariners paid for Griffey s 1 home run and seven RBis in his last season.

    Uness Jones turns his career around and starts for someone and puts up mumbers, he isnt going to last more then couuple of years on the BBWA ballot for Cooiperstown. Close to 400 or a bit more thne 400 HRS are not HOF guarantees anymore.....Dale Murphy, Dwight Evans, Jason Giamabi, Jim Edmonds, Joe carter, Juan Gonzales all come to mind..

    For a decade, Jones may have been one of the best CFers who ever lived....hjis career is now in the useful sub phase.

    Of the players I mentionend, I would like to see Dewey Evans in the HOF......For me and Im 58, he s in the holy trinity of right field along with Kaline and Roberto.......it s shameful that after 19 years with the Red Sox, they didnt retire Deweys number 24. . And the argument, that we only put HOFers on the wall in Fenway doesnt because Johnny Pesly s number was retired.....

    And an interesting question is......how much lefdt does Berkman have at age t 35? Can he put up enough numbers to justify a HOF election?

  53. Hey Andy (Post 18):

    I guess my point was, most games are at night, most pitchers are right handed, most players hit well at home and most game-changing situations come in the late innings.

    I wasn't trying to harangue you or anything.

    Asher

  54. Responding to Dobbs (20), I think Jones is doing splendidly in his role.

    Andy's tone seems to imply that Jones is "back," and well I don't see it.

    We don't want Jones to be Willie Mays, but pretending that he is Andruw Jones again also seems inaccurate.

  55. To Mr. Sparkle (23), I will say that it has been very wise of Joe Girardi to put Jones in positions in which he can succeed.

    At the same time, you have to admit that, at this point, those positions are pretty limited.

  56. "Andruw Jones' wonderful numbers appear to be products of his usage:

    He has 42 plate appearances against righties this season, during which he is .189/.286/.432."

    Which is good for a 718 OPS or a 105 sOPS+; which means he better than the average righty vs RHP

    "He has 89 plate appearances on the road this year, during which he is .200/.326/.413."

    which is a 739 OPS good for a 110 sOPs again better than league average.

    Does not sound like a terribly useful hitter to me.

    Asher

    Seeing how your tossing out his worst numbers to show he's better than average and the fact he has been crushing lefties the last two years, seems more than useful.

  57. I think he failed to realize that in this season, a season of low offensive numbers, those slashes that looked weak in past years are actually good.

  58. Well, I am not sure Andy was saying that Andruw Jones has been performing just above league average for a right-handed batter. I believe his point was that he is slugging again.

    And my point is, he is succeeding because he is being put in a position in which he can succeed. Those numbers would plummet if he were an everyday player.

    I will admit to being surprised at how good those splits actually were when compared to league average, though. That was an excellent point.

  59. Can it be mentioned at least once in this thread that he has a cannon of an arm? I guess I'll have to do it at #60.

    The thing that bothers you about andruw is that he's always out of shape. Seemingly the only thing between him and the hall is effort. The guy has all the talent in the world. That's not something you typically say about the best defensive player of his era.

  60. Has this turned into an Andruw Jones for the Hall of Fame debate?

    Because my position would be unequivocally Yes.

    Interestingly, if you look at his career, it is kind of the reverse of Roberto Clemente's career.

    Clemente got off to a terrible start, with five suck offensive years, before becoming one of the best offensive players in baseball, while Jones got off to a great start but seems destined to end his career on a run of five (or more) suck years.

    But Jones, like Clemente, has been one of the greatest defenders of all time, and I believe that who a player is for the meaningful part of his career should not be trumped by the dregs at the beginning or end of his career.