Comments on: Justin Verlander: Best Tigers pitcher since … ? http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/12057 This and that about baseball stats. Tue, 16 Jul 2013 17:01:55 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.6 By: pbrower2a http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/12057/comment-page-1#comment-124867 Wed, 29 Jun 2011 08:18:13 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=12057#comment-124867 Every great player or pitcher is different -- but the last few games of Justin Verlander look like throwbacks to the Koufax/Gibson/Marichal era. The WHIP ratio is just incredible. Ryan never had this sort of control.

The longest-lasting careers for pitchers are those of extreme strikeout pitchers, followed by knuckle-ball pitchers, followed by sinker-ballers, and then those who relied upon pitching to contact. As an illustration, Jim Palmer and Nolan Ryan were born at roughly the same time, but Jim Palmer was a first-time entrant to the Hall of Fame while Nolan Ryan was still pitching.

I now project Verlander to have something like the career of Roger Clemens or Randy Johnson -- very long. He is the sort who will have many post-season appearances, if not with the Tigers then almost certainly with the New York Yankees. It is possible that he will quit at his peak like Koufax -- but one thing is different this time: the money is just too good.

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By: Lawrence Azrin http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/12057/comment-page-1#comment-124602 Tue, 28 Jun 2011 14:37:34 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=12057#comment-124602 @65/ Mustachioed Repetition Says: "{...It's possible that the next 300 game-winner isn't even in the major leagues yet}

Since 1875, there has *always* been a once or future 300-game winner active in MLB. We may not know who it is yet (Sabathia is the best bet), but I'm guessing there's one out there now."

Mustachioed Repetition, I stand corrected. Perhaps I should've phrased it, "...it is possible the next 300-game winner isn't even ON OUR RADAR YET". I agree Sabathia is the most likely right now, but there's such a long road to 300.

I also agree with you that @24 is a terrible post - sounds like a troll. One game, even a Game 7 of the WS, does not definitively "prove" anything about a pitcher's greatness.

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By: Dukeofflatbush http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/12057/comment-page-1#comment-124578 Tue, 28 Jun 2011 12:06:10 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=12057#comment-124578 At PIstachioes Wept...

I meant less IP per start, not per season. (Which I know may be contradictory, but Maddux made 33 starts [except the strikes] for 20-ish years, I'm sure to keeping him below 150 pitches. And I did point out less per/start would extend a career, hence Maddux's 5000 - which by the way, he said is by far his proudest achievement, strange from a World series, CY Young, ERA, etc Champ.

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By: Neil L. http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/12057/comment-page-1#comment-124496 Tue, 28 Jun 2011 04:43:43 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=12057#comment-124496 @65

Mustachioed Repetition, you float like a butterfly, sting like a bee! 🙂

Nice post.

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By: Mustachioed Repetition http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/12057/comment-page-1#comment-124484 Tue, 28 Jun 2011 04:12:08 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=12057#comment-124484 will we ever see 300+ wins again
....
It's possible that the next 300 game-winner isn't even in the major leagues yet

Since 1875, there has *always* been a once or future 300-game winner active in MLB. We may not know who it is yet (Sabathia is the best bet), but I'm guessing there's one out there now.

***

Halladay's fitness regimen is legendary ..... is CC's or is the whole idea of "fitness" for pitchers nonsense?

I'm not sure anyone really knows what is good for pitchers. Anyway, I have heard that CC does work hard to keep in shape. He just has the type of body prone to put on weight, and perhaps he likes to eat as well. While he has a gut, I don't think he looks unfit. I think he's a very athletic guy who happens to have a gut. And while it's probably not optimal, there have certainly been heavy pitchers who were able to succeed deep into their 30s and beyond.

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Chicago/24, that's a really terrible post, for many reasons. I just can't wait until Verlander pitches in the 7th game of a WS, so hopefully you can eat this comment: "I would take Morris and Lolich, even McClain over Verlander in the seventh game of a World Series." (Of course, if he kicks ass, it will be because he finally learned how to pitch, BLAH BLAH BLAH)

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about 7.6 IP/start...not terribly surprising for a pitcher in a contract year

Evidence?

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Read the book, already! 🙂 Michael Lewis is a terrific writer. You don't have to think that Billy Beane is the greatest GM in the world in order to enjoy the book.

Very true. One scene/chapter that always stood out to me was the trade for Mike Magnante. From our perspective, a completely meaningless deal. But in the context of the book, it was fascinating all the effort that went into consummating such a minor transaction. (No guarantee I've remembered it correctly.)

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less IP has very little to do with not getting to get 300 wins.

It does. IP per decision has not changed that much over the years. But while guys have fewer IP/season now, they pitch more seasons. We just saw Greg Maddux, pitching his prime years during the so-called steroid era, reach 5000 IP.

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By: Neil L. http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/12057/comment-page-1#comment-124477 Tue, 28 Jun 2011 03:51:46 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=12057#comment-124477 @63

Rip and Duke, so by 1984 would the Tigers have been the best team Sparky ever managed? (God rest his soul) The Big Red Machine notwithstanding!

After all, how good do you have to be to start 35-5?

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By: Dukeofflatbush http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/12057/comment-page-1#comment-124441 Tue, 28 Jun 2011 00:55:36 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=12057#comment-124441 @ Rip,

Morris' actual MLB anniversary is today. July 26, 1977. Lance Parrish debuted a few months earlier and Whitaker and Trammel on Sept 19th (same day).
They all stayed together for 10 years.
Steve Kemp was also a Rookie for that '77 Tiger team.
By 79' Peaches, Gibby and Sparky all joined the crew.

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By: Rip http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/12057/comment-page-1#comment-124440 Tue, 28 Jun 2011 00:29:41 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=12057#comment-124440 @9

Most of the pitchers listed was drafted when they were 17/18 years old. Jack Morris and Justin Verlander were 21 when they were drafted out of college.

As far as thier ages when they started playing MLB.
Hal Newhouser 18
Denny McClain 19
Dan Petry 20
Mickey Lolich 22
Jack Morris 22
Justin Verlander 22
And Jack Morris was a September call up and went 1-1 his first season. Also of note, Detroit's runs scored were at or near the top when Petry and Morris pitched from 1981-85. And the teams that Newhouser, McClain, and Lolich pitched for were not too shaby either.

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By: Dukeofflatbush http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/12057/comment-page-1#comment-124438 Tue, 28 Jun 2011 00:22:47 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=12057#comment-124438 I also saw this poor soul at a Trenton Thunder home game.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=fagget001eth
By his stat sheet, I guess '97, but it seems so much longer than that, I actually thought it was a dream.
I couldn't believe a stadium could devolve into Lord of the Flies imaturity, but must admit I was pulled into the chanting.
And even the announcer had a tough time saying his name with out giggling.
But god, did that kid have thick skin.
God bless him.

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By: Dukeofflatbush http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/12057/comment-page-1#comment-124437 Tue, 28 Jun 2011 00:13:32 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=12057#comment-124437 @ John,

I only know this by accident. But attending a '04(?) game at Shea with a German friend and they announced.... "AND NOW BATTING FOR ATLANTA - LANGERHANS"
My german friend nearly fell out of her seat with laughter.
LANGERHANS is common slang in urban German for 'long' or 'large' - literally 'hands' - but in slang... another anatomic feature, unique to men, and not the adams apple.

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