Comments on: Rulebook Challenge — Experts, please help! http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/11816 This and that about baseball stats. Tue, 16 Jul 2013 17:01:55 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.6 By: oneblankspace http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/11816/comment-page-2#comment-122081 Sun, 19 Jun 2011 06:38:45 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=11816#comment-122081 There was a play a few years back where Ron LeFlore went from first to third on a single. Before the first pitch to the next batter, he attempted to steal home, and was thrown out. When asked why, he stated that he had missed second base and would have been out on appeal. By stealing, the pitcher had to attempt a play at the plate, and thus lost the right to appeal. A 90% out probability was better than a 100% out probability.

]]>
By: Johnny Twisto http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/11816/comment-page-2#comment-121893 Fri, 17 Jun 2011 22:44:52 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=11816#comment-121893 I'm disappointed Cabriael(?) hasn't chimed in here.

]]>
By: Reg http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/11816/comment-page-2#comment-121845 Fri, 17 Jun 2011 19:06:02 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=11816#comment-121845 I've posted this on my blog,which is mainly visited by umpires, with links back to here. Hopefully someone else will chime in.
Here's the blog post in case people reply on the comments there: http://rulebookguru.blogspot.com/2011/06/what-happened-here.html

]]>
By: Chuck http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/11816/comment-page-2#comment-121518 Thu, 16 Jun 2011 16:30:57 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=11816#comment-121518 "So, what is the process by which the ball becomes dead after that out is recorded? Must the defense ask for and receive "time" from the umpire;"

Yes.

"does the umpire call "time" independently;"

He can, but only in certain situations, like a fan running on the field, or to signal a weather delay, or when a manager or player argues a play, or for an injury to a player or another umpire. But there is no arbitrary calling of time.

"or is it merely understood that the ball is dead until the next batter is set in the box and the ump issues the "play" signal?"

The ball is not automatically dead after an out.

"-- At some point in that interval, the ball must be "dead," because the pitcher isn't allowed to deliver a legal pitch until the batter is in the box and ready."

That's true, but the ball is still live.

When following a dead ball play, however, such as a homer, once the pitcher has received the new ball from the ump AND toes the rubber, the ball becomes live, sometimes the umpire will signal with his hand "play", sometimes he just points to the batter. The batter DOES NOT have to be in the batter's box for the ball to become live. (Rule 5.11)

]]>
By: John Autin http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/11816/comment-page-2#comment-121507 Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:50:19 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=11816#comment-121507 @117 --
[John A:] "the play became dead de facto once Duda was retired...."
[Chuck:] "No such thing, John."

Chuck, do you mean that the ball was still "live" after the play on Duda and continuing to the "appeal" at 3rd base? If so, please explain the following:

-- When the defense records an out that does not end the inning but leaves no runners on base, the next batter in the order comes to the plate.
-- At some point in that interval, the ball must be "dead," because the pitcher isn't allowed to deliver a legal pitch until the batter is in the box and ready.
-- So, what is the process by which the ball becomes dead after that out is recorded? Must the defense ask for and receive "time" from the umpire; does the umpire call "time" independently; or is it merely understood that the ball is dead until the next batter is set in the box and the ump issues the "play" signal?

]]>
By: Chuck http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/11816/comment-page-2#comment-121492 Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:57:39 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=11816#comment-121492 FYI....

Rule 9.02 (c);

If a decision is appealed, the umpire making the decision may ask another umpire for information before making a final decision. No umpire shall criticize, seek to reverse or interfere with another umpire’s decision unless asked to do so by theumpire making it. If the umpires consult after a play and change a call that had been made, then they have the authority to take all steps that they may deem necessary, in their discretion, to eliminate the results and consequences of the earlier call that they are reversing, including placing runners where they think those runners would have been after the play, had the ultimate call been made as the initial call, disregarding interference or obstruction that may have occurred on the
play; failures of runners to tag up based upon the initial call on the field; runners passing other runners or missing bases; etc., all in the discretion of the umpires. Non player, manager or coach shall be permitted to argue the exercise of the umpires’ discretion in resolving the play and any person so arguing shall be subject to ejection."

A portion of Rule 9.05

"...Keep your eye everlastingly on the ball while it is in play. It is more vital to know just where a fly ball fell, or a thrown ball finished up, than whether or not a runner missed a base. Do not call the plays too quickly, or turn away too fast when a fielder is throwing to complete a double play. Watch out for
dropped balls after you have called a man out. Do not come running with your arm up or down, denoting “out” or “safe.” Wait until the play is completed before making any arm motion.
Each umpire team should work out a simple set of signals, so the proper umpire can always right a manifestly wrong decision when convinced he has made an error. If sure you got the play correctly, do not be stampeded by players’ appeals to “ask the other man.” If not sure, ask one of your associates. Do not carry this to extremes, be alert and get your own plays. But remember! The first requisite is to get decisions correctly. If in doubt don’t hesitate to consult your associate. Umpire dignity is important but
never as important as “being right.”

]]>
By: Chuck http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/11816/comment-page-2#comment-121491 Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:52:39 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=11816#comment-121491 Johnny @ #114

"Fair enough, but in this case, the call was also the home plate umpire's responsibility, due to the rotations. At #104 you said "you appeal to the base, which includes the assigned umpire." But it doesn't, the assigned umpire is at home. What am I missing here?"

"Assigned umpire" means the the third base umpire, because the appeal was at third. The fact the umpire made no call is the indicator to the Pirates they needed to ask him for assistance, and at that point the 3B ump has the option to ask another umpire for assistance.

"The Pirates aren't keeping track of ump rotations, so you are saying (I think) that if no call is made by the nearest ump, they should ask that ump to check with whoever saw the play. Is that right?"

That's exactly right.

"Do they have to specify which ump to check with (which they may not know)?"

No. They can ask for multiple opinions, but the umpires themselves know who is supposed to be where, and when.

So, if the HP ump says he also didn't see the play, then the Pirates could ask him to check with another and so on.

]]>
By: Chuck http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/11816/comment-page-2#comment-121489 Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:43:35 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=11816#comment-121489 "I think we should acknowledge that the umpires know the rules and applied them perfectly in this case."

That was made clear about 70 posts ago.

Although, apparently, not clearly enough.

"the play became dead de facto"

No such thing, John.

]]>
By: John Autin http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/11816/comment-page-2#comment-121367 Thu, 16 Jun 2011 02:16:29 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=11816#comment-121367 @115, RichW -- I respectfully disagree that the play on Duda negated the possibility of an appeal at 3rd base.

Reiterating the language of Rule 7.10, after paragraph (d):
"Any appeal under this rule must be made before the next pitch, or any play or attempted play.
"An appeal is not to be interpreted as a play or an attempted play."

I maintain that the play on Duda at 1st base was an appeal, per Rule 7.08. Therefore, it does not qualify as a "play or attempted play" -- and thus it does not preclude the ensuing appeal at 3rd base.

FWIW, my own current conclusion about what happened on that play is that -- as someone suggested above -- the play became dead de facto once Duda was retired, with Tejada having already crossed the plate. If so, then the Pirates would have had to go through the process of making the ball "live" again (i.e., pitcher toes the rubber with the ball) before making the appeal at 3rd.

]]>
By: RichW http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/11816/comment-page-2#comment-121356 Thu, 16 Jun 2011 01:08:32 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=11816#comment-121356 Chuck @ post 113. Johnny @ post 114.

There really isn't such a thing as a dead ball appeal. Appeals can only be made with a live ball. The situation where the pitcher goes to the rubber is to accommodate the ball becoming dead on the play. A perfect example is a one hopper ground rule double where the runner misses first. The ball is dead upon leaving the field. Subsequently when the umpire signals "play" the pitcher steps off and throws to first for the appeal. The ball is live.

Rule 7.10 applies perfectly. See this quote
Any appeal under this rule must be made before the next pitch, or any play or attempted play. If the violation occurs during a play which ends a half-inning, the appeal must be made before the defensive team leaves the field.

Note "any play or attempted play". This clearly indicates a live ball situation and completely explains the video. The act of (a play) throwing out Duda wipes out any appeal by rule. It completely explains why the umpire showed no sign when the ball was thrown to third. He could not make any sign because doing so would indicate a viable appeal where none existed.

I think we should acknowledge that the umpires know the rules and applied them perfectly in this case.

]]>