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On Base 4000+ Times (Including ROE )

Posted by Steve Lombardi on June 10, 2011

How many players in baseball history have reached base, including via an error, 4,000 times or more in the career?

Here's the list -

Rk Player TOBwe From To Age G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB IBB SO HBP SH SF GDP SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS Pos Tm
1 Pete Rose 5929 1963 1986 22-45 3562 15861 14053 2165 4256 746 135 160 1314 1566 167 1143 107 56 79 247 198 149 .303 .375 .409 .784 37549/8 CIN-PHI-TOT
2 Barry Bonds 5599 1986 2007 21-42 2986 12606 9847 2227 2935 601 77 762 1996 2558 688 1539 106 4 91 165 514 141 .298 .444 .607 1.051 *78/D9 PIT-SFG
3 Ty Cobb 5532 1905 1928 18-41 3034 13068 11434 2246 4189 724 295 117 1938 1249 0 562 94 291 0 0 897 212 .366 .433 .512 .945 *89/73145 DET-PHA
4 Rickey Henderson 5343 1979 2003 20-44 3081 13346 10961 2295 3055 510 66 297 1115 2190 61 1694 98 30 67 172 1406 335 .279 .401 .419 .820 *78D/9 OAK-NYY-TOT-SDP-NYM-BOS-LAD
5 Carl Yastrzemski 5304 1961 1983 21-43 3308 13991 11988 1816 3419 646 59 452 1844 1845 190 1393 40 13 105 323 168 116 .285 .379 .462 .841 *73D8/59 BOS
6 Stan Musial 5282 1941 1963 20-42 3026 12712 10972 1949 3630 725 177 475 1951 1599 127 696 53 35 53 243 78 31 .331 .417 .559 .976 3798/1 STL
7 Hank Aaron 5205 1954 1976 20-42 3298 13940 12364 2174 3771 624 98 755 2297 1402 293 1383 32 21 121 328 240 73 .305 .374 .555 .928 *9783D/45 MLN-ATL-MIL
8 Tris Speaker 4998 1907 1928 19-40 2790 11988 10195 1882 3514 792 222 117 1529 1381 0 283 103 309 0 0 436 157 .345 .428 .500 .928 *8/3971 BOS-CLE-WSH-PHA
9 Babe Ruth 4978 1914 1935 19-40 2503 10617 8399 2174 2873 506 136 714 2213 2062 0 1330 43 113 0 2 123 117 .342 .474 .690 1.164 971/83 BOS-NYY-BSN
10 Eddie Collins 4891 1906 1930 19-43 2825 12037 9949 1821 3315 438 187 47 1300 1499 0 360 77 512 0 0 741 195 .333 .424 .429 .853 *4/69875 PHA-CHW
11 Willie Mays 4791 1951 1973 20-42 2992 12493 10881 2062 3283 523 140 660 1903 1464 192 1526 44 13 91 251 338 103 .302 .384 .557 .941 *8/39675 NYG-SFG-TOT-NYM
12 Ted Williams 4714 1939 1960 20-41 2292 9791 7706 1798 2654 525 71 521 1839 2021 86 709 39 5 20 197 24 17 .344 .482 .634 1.116 *79/1 BOS
13 Mel Ott 4648 1926 1947 17-38 2730 11337 9456 1859 2876 488 72 511 1860 1708 0 896 64 109 0 82 89 0 .304 .414 .533 .947 *958/74 NYG
14 Eddie Murray 4606 1977 1997 21-41 3026 12817 11336 1627 3255 560 35 504 1917 1333 222 1516 18 2 128 315 110 43 .287 .359 .476 .836 *3D/57 BAL-LAD-NYM-CLE-TOT
15 Frank Robinson 4561 1956 1976 20-40 2808 11743 10006 1829 2943 528 72 586 1812 1420 218 1532 198 17 102 270 204 77 .294 .389 .537 .926 97D38/5 CIN-BAL-LAD-CAL-TOT-CLE
16 Honus Wagner 4508 1897 1917 23-43 2794 11748 10439 1739 3420 643 252 101 1733 963 0 734 125 221 0 0 723 26 .328 .391 .467 .858 *6935/8471 LOU-PIT
17 Craig Biggio 4505 1988 2007 22-41 2850 12503 10876 1844 3060 668 55 291 1175 1160 68 1753 285 101 81 150 414 124 .281 .363 .433 .796 *4287/D9 HOU
18 Rafael Palmeiro 4460 1986 2005 21-40 2831 12046 10472 1663 3020 585 38 569 1835 1353 172 1348 87 15 119 232 97 40 .288 .371 .515 .885 *3D7/98 CHC-TEX-BAL
19 Paul Molitor 4460 1978 1998 21-41 2683 12160 10835 1782 3319 605 114 234 1307 1094 100 1244 47 75 109 209 504 131 .306 .369 .448 .817 D543/6879 MIL-TOR-MIN
20 Wade Boggs 4445 1982 1999 24-41 2440 10740 9180 1513 3010 578 61 118 1014 1412 180 745 23 29 96 236 24 35 .328 .415 .443 .858 *5D/317 BOS-NYY-TBD
21 Joe Morgan 4422 1963 1984 19-40 2649 11329 9277 1650 2517 449 96 268 1133 1865 76 1015 40 51 96 105 689 162 .271 .392 .427 .819 *4/7D58 HOU-CIN-SFG-PHI-OAK
22 Cal Ripken 4379 1981 2001 20-40 3001 12883 11551 1647 3184 603 44 431 1695 1129 107 1305 66 10 127 350 36 39 .276 .340 .447 .788 *65/D BAL
23 Dave Winfield 4351 1973 1995 21-43 2973 12358 11003 1669 3110 540 88 465 1833 1216 172 1686 25 19 95 319 223 96 .283 .353 .475 .827 *97D8/35 SDP-NYY-TOT-CAL-TOR-MIN-CLE
24 Al Kaline 4339 1953 1974 18-39 2834 11597 10116 1622 3007 498 75 399 1583 1277 131 1020 55 45 104 271 137 65 .297 .376 .480 .855 *98D3/75 DET
25 Gary Sheffield 4299 1988 2009 19-40 2576 10947 9217 1636 2689 467 27 509 1676 1475 130 1171 135 9 111 235 253 104 .292 .393 .514 .907 975D/63 MIL-SDP-TOT-FLA-LAD-ATL-NYY-DET-NYM
26 George Brett 4283 1973 1993 20-40 2707 11624 10349 1583 3154 665 137 317 1596 1096 229 908 33 26 120 235 201 97 .305 .369 .487 .857 *5D3/796 KCR
27 Paul Waner 4281 1926 1945 23-42 2550 10762 9459 1627 3152 605 191 113 1309 1091 0 376 38 174 0 127 104 0 .333 .404 .473 .878 *9/378 PIT-TOT-BSN-BRO-NYY
28 Lou Gehrig 4274 1923 1939 20-36 2164 9660 8001 1888 2721 534 163 493 1995 1508 0 790 45 106 0 2 102 100 .340 .447 .632 1.080 *3/976 NYY
29 Frank Thomas 4222 1990 2008 22-40 2322 10074 8199 1494 2468 495 12 521 1704 1667 168 1397 87 0 121 226 32 23 .301 .419 .555 .974 *D3 CHW-OAK-TOR-TOT
30 Ken Griffey 4174 1989 2010 19-40 2671 11304 9801 1662 2781 524 38 630 1836 1312 246 1779 81 8 102 199 184 69 .284 .370 .538 .907 *89D/73 SEA-CIN-TOT
31 Mickey Mantle 4161 1951 1968 19-36 2401 9909 8102 1676 2415 344 72 536 1509 1733 126 1710 13 14 47 113 153 38 .298 .421 .557 .977 *8397/645 NYY
32 Robin Yount 4156 1974 1993 18-37 2856 12249 11008 1632 3142 583 126 251 1406 966 95 1350 48 104 123 217 271 105 .285 .342 .430 .772 *68D/73 MIL
33 Derek Jeter 4117 1995 2011 21-37 2352 10818 9563 1720 2989 476 62 236 1152 970 37 1600 155 79 51 241 328 87 .313 .383 .449 .832 *6/D NYY
34 Jimmie Foxx 4111 1925 1945 17-37 2316 9670 8134 1751 2646 458 125 534 1922 1452 0 1311 13 71 0 69 87 73 .325 .428 .609 1.038 *352/7196 PHA-BOS-TOT-CHC-PHI
35 Rod Carew 4096 1967 1985 21-39 2469 10550 9315 1424 3053 445 112 92 1015 1018 144 1028 25 128 64 216 353 187 .328 .393 .429 .822 34/D657 MIN-CAL
36 Charlie Gehringer 4075 1924 1942 21-39 2323 10237 8860 1774 2839 574 146 184 1427 1186 0 372 50 141 0 27 181 90 .320 .404 .480 .884 *4/35 DET
37 Luke Appling 4062 1930 1950 23-43 2422 10243 8856 1319 2749 440 102 45 1116 1302 0 528 11 74 0 129 179 108 .310 .399 .398 .798 *6/543 CHW
38 Reggie Jackson 4055 1967 1987 21-41 2820 11416 9864 1551 2584 463 49 563 1702 1375 164 2597 96 13 68 183 228 115 .262 .356 .490 .846 *9D8/7 KCA-OAK-BAL-NYY-CAL
39 Rusty Staub 4050 1963 1985 19-41 2951 11229 9720 1189 2716 499 47 292 1466 1255 193 888 79 56 119 297 47 33 .279 .362 .431 .793 *9D3/78 HOU-MON-NYM-DET-TOT-TEX
40 Alex Rodriguez 4027 1994 2011 18-35 2358 10444 9038 1793 2731 485 29 624 1865 1141 87 1884 154 16 95 218 304 73 .302 .386 .569 .955 *65/D SEA-TEX-NYY
41 Rogers Hornsby 4016 1915 1937 19-41 2259 9475 8173 1579 2930 541 169 301 1584 1038 0 679 48 216 0 3 135 64 .358 .434 .577 1.010 *465/3978 STL-NYG-BSN-CHC-TOT-SLB
42 Manny Ramirez 4013 1993 2011 21-39 2302 9774 8244 1544 2574 547 20 555 1831 1329 216 1813 109 2 90 243 38 33 .312 .411 .585 .996 79D CLE-BOS-TOT-LAD-TBR
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 6/10/2011.

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Nice company for Le Grand Orange.  By the way, Jim Thome and Chipper Jones should make the list any day now.  And, Bobby Abreu could make it some time as well.

This entry was posted on Friday, June 10th, 2011 at 6:30 am and is filed under Season Finders. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

51 Responses to “On Base 4000+ Times (Including ROE )”

  1. Thomas Court Says:

    These totals do not include ROE numbers.

    Bonds hits+walks+hbp = 5599

  2. Hmm, maybe a problem with the query?

  3. stan cook Says:

    Regarding the discussion several weeks ago about runs scored as a percentage of times on base per single season. Pete's career percentage is only 36.5 which seems low to me batting first and batting in front of so many good hitters. Not sure what a "normal" percentage would be, but I am looking at the modest power lead off types such as Cobb (40.5), Biggio (40.9), Jeter (41.9). Lack of speed?; playing in the 60s?. I do notice that Boggs is only 34%

  4. I didn't realize Bonds was so high on this list, though it makes perfect sense. Another couple of seasons likely would have vaulted him to number one. It's unfortunate he never got another opportunity to play.

  5. Dukeofflatbush Says:

    I think a more lasting accomplishment would be if Jeter makes it to 5,000. I know we are talking a way long shot, but still I think more impressive than 3000 hits.
    Guys like him and Biggio were/are really helped by their HBP. Especially in Biggio's case (even though he fell short).
    A great club, is the 5000 TOB & 5000 TB. Rose and Cobb make it despite their lack of power, in fact both have, just counting first and second as a base, have 5,000 TBs.
    Jeter is a way long shot to make 5000/5000, but if he sucks it up, gets a bit more offensive, takes Jorge's DH slot next year, allows the Yankees to sign Reyes... and sorry I was dreaming sensibly again. I apologize.

  6. Dukeofflatbush Says:

    Sometimes I forget just how darn good Rickey was. Imagine if he played 10-15 games more a season in his prime? Maybe the 20 games missed a season kept around 25 years? But if he and Bonds were ever teammates in their primes, whoa boy! Speed, power, OBP, and tons of mustard on the hotdog!

  7. Was anyone else surprised at how close Jeter and ARod were? I would have assumed that ARod had a sizable leader in OBP. When I saw that Jeter had more times on base, I assumed it had to do with more PAs as a function of hitting leadoff. But their OBPs are almost identical... 383 for Jetes and 386 for ARod.

  8. Steve - I don't think it's a problem with the query you did, I just think there is something that is not working properly with the actual PI search when you look for TOB with and without ROE. Andy did a post a few days (weeks?) ago:

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/11380

    highest ratio of runs scored to times on base where he included ROE and some pointed out that the search didn't include ROE. I did his search using wROE and w/oROE and I got the same numbers both times, only when I did the search without ROE I didn't get the actual times on base column (the column was there, the numbers were not).

    I didn't do what TC did (H+BB+HBP) to determine the list didn't include ROE, but I was pretty certain Tim Raines should be on this list and he wasn't (he is at 4076 with 3977 H+BB+HBP and 99 ROE).

  9. This also does not include Fielder's Choice - safe plays. (Runner on third, ground ball, the infielder throws home, everybody safe.) Or sac bunt, everybody safe. Does it include reaching on a strikeout, passed ball or wild pitch? Catcher's Interference? It certainly does not include plays where the batter is safe but another runner is out. In other words, no list of TOB is complete, and all are somewhat artificial.

  10. Lawrence Azrin Says:

    @8/Artie Z, yes I remember recent HOF discussions about Raines, in which his supporters mention that he had over 4000 TOB, and that Gwynn didn't. I also looked for Raines on this list.

    @9/ KDs, yes, no list of TOB is complete, and Reached On Error seems only to go back to 1950, so we are dealing with an even-less-complete TOB total for all pre-WWII players.

    Is the "4000 Times On Base" club just as impressive as the "3000 Hit" club? I say this because several players with 3000 hits (Brock, Clemente, Gwynn) are not on the above list. Anson isn't listed, even though his H+BB+HBP is nearly 4500, so I assume this is because of a pre-1901 cutoff (Lajoie doesn't make it including pre-1900).

    Also, there is only one player on the above list, Rusty Staub, that was both not voted into the HOF, and does not deserve it (I am leaving off-field issues out of that discussion).

  11. Just looking at the list, I'd be interested to see a list with Times on Base/game. At a quick glance, only Ted Williams is over 2 TOB/game played. Babe Ruth is close to 2.0/game, as is Wagner. That would seem to be more telling in terms of productivity.

  12. John Autin Says:

    I don't understand why B-R has a 2nd version of "Times On Base" that includes reached on error. I guess it's just because the ROE stat is available, whereas the number of times on base via fielder's choice, etc., are not (?).

    But I just can't think of any purpose to TOBw/ROE. If I want to know about proficiency at reaching base safely, I want plain TOB (which is hits + walks + HBP). If I want to know something about how many times a guy was on the bases in total, TOBw/ROE doesn't come anywhere near answering that. So what's the point?

    It's not as though reaching on an error were an event that happened often or reflected some characteristic of the batter.

  13. John Autin Says:

    @3, Stan Cook -- I see two main factors in Rose's rate of runs scored per times on base:

    (1) The scoring context of Rose's career was among the lowest of any player in the live-ball era. His career began in '63, the exact year that the bottom fell out of NL scoring (from 4.5 R/G in '62 to 3.8 in '63), and ended before the offensive explosion of the early '90s.

    (2) Rose had little HR power and only average speed. If you compare him to other players of that same type, during that era, he fares quite well; but the sluggers and the speedsters beat him out.

    I just did a quick search & sort for the scoring rates (per TOB) of the players who had the most TOB from 1961-90. Of the top 50 in total TOB, Rose's scoring rate ranks 24th. The 23 players ahead of Rose consist of 20 power hitters and 3 SB kings (Brock, Campaneris and Willie Davis).

  14. Richard Chester Says:

    It is interesting to note the wide disparity in HBP, from 285 for Biggio and 198 for Frank Robinson to just 11 for Appling and 13 for Mantle and Foxx.

  15. Johnny Twisto Says:

    JA, ROE *is* a characteristic of batters. Derek Jeter has led the league 5 times. I think it should be included in OBP.

  16. @12.

    "It's not as though reaching on an error were an event that happened often or reflected some characteristic of the batter."

    I agree with you John, mostly. Certainly, no argument about frequency, at least in the modern day game.

    One area where ROE may be indicative of a quality or characteristic of the batter is the ability to induce, or increase the likelihood, of the defense committing an error.

    So, principally I'm talking about batters with: some speed; who use the whole field; and thus, may hit more grounders in holes that force defenders to make tougher plays and thereby commit more errors.

    But, is it true? One way to measure, perhaps, is whether ROE correlates with ground-ball hitters and stolen bases. Probably, something that could be done with available data.

  17. John Autin Says:

    @15 -- But Johnny, does that reflect anything besides the fact that Jeter has 9 seasons of 700+ PAs, leading the league 5 times?

  18. John Autin Says:

    Further to Jeter's ROE -- What I mean is that, while there may be some consistent difference in player ROE rates per at-bat, the range is not big enough to be meaningful.

  19. Richard Chester Says:

    @17, @18

    For the past 2 seasons Jeter has been hitting lots of ground balls, maybe more than anyone else. If it were that way for his entire career he would have provided more opportunities for ROE since most of them come on balls mishandled by infielders.

  20. stan cook Says:

    ROE probably correlates inversely with guys who walk, homer, and SO at a high frequency. So, I would expect does GIDP

  21. Johnny Twisto Says:

    Yes. He is right-handed, a groundball hitter, and was pretty fast most of his career.

    PI doesn't allow a sort for actual ROE, but you can sort by ROE runs above average. Over his career, Jeter's ability to ROE has been worth 50 runs more than Carlos Delgado's. Jeter has reached on error once per 63 PA in his career, or once per 38 AB that did not result in a hit. Delgado ROE once per 188 PA, or once per 114 (AB-H).

  22. JA @ 12,17-

    I remember reading here awhile back that rate of reaching base on an error is something that is repeatable and is characteristic to the batter.

    The most prominent reason I would see for this is that a batter who is quick down the line and consistently hustles is more apt to reach base on a slightly booted ball or a slightly errant throw since the fielder will have less opportunity to recover from his mistake. I think there are probably other reasons why reaching on an error might be characteristic of batters as well.

    Anytime you deal with errors you end up with strange stats because it is such a subjective statistic. If you saw the highlight of Polanco's throwing error from last night it was a throw that hit several feet in front of Ryan Howard and bounced over his glove/shoulder, allowing the batter to reach. My first thought was that even though that type of play is always ruled an error on the guy who threw it, it is a scoop that most major league first basemen tend to make. Without suggesting the my observation is in anyway based upon enough data to be telling, it is my impression from watching a small sample of Howard's play that he does a very poor job of catching throws that are bounced in front of him. Thus his teammates are charged with more errors and the Phillies give up more infield singles than they would with a more proficient fielder at first.

  23. John Autin Says:

    @21 -- Are Jeter and Delgado at extreme ends of the ROE spectrum?

  24. Johnny Twisto Says:

    I mean, I think that 1 in 38 (AB-H) is huge. Given a quick glance at Jeter's statistical record, one would assume his non-hit ABs are outs, but 2.6% of them were not outs. He successfully reached base. 50 runs is a lot of value. 5 wins over a career when we talk about guys worth 50 wins as possible HOFers. Jeter may be an extreme case (as Delgado is at the other end), but everyone lies somewhere along the continuum. I think ignoring ROE is like ignoring HBP. Obviously they're not as meaningful as other things, but if you want a full picture of the player's value and/or skillset, why ignore them? Both of them may seem to be the fault of the defense, but there's no question that some batters get more and some get less. It's a skill and it's repeatable.

  25. Johnny Twisto Says:

    JA/23, Jeter and Delgado are the most ROE-runs above and below average since 1996. Part of that is because they played a lot. If you look at ROE/PA or ROE-runs/PA, you may find guys who were a little further out on the spectrum.

  26. Johnny Twisto Says:

    batter who is quick down the line and consistently hustles is more apt to reach base on a slightly booted ball or a slightly errant throw

    Yes, another characteristic of Jeter's. He *always* goes hard.

  27. Johnny Twisto Says:

    f you saw the highlight of Polanco's throwing error from last night it was a throw that hit several feet in front of Ryan Howard and bounced over his glove/shoulder, allowing the batter to reach. My first thought was that even though that type of play is always ruled an error on the guy who threw it, it is a scoop that most major league first basemen tend to make.

    I saw that play and you're right, it's about the easiest bounce a 1Bman could have. Howard should have made the play. Still, it has to be Polanco's error, since he made the bad throw.

    BSK has proposed eliminating the hit/error distinctions. I wouldn't go that far. But insofar as ROE do help teams score, there's no reason to ignore them when determining how many runs a player created.

  28. Lawrence Azrin Says:

    Johnny Twisto Says: " ... I think ignoring ROE is like ignoring HBP. Obviously they're not as meaningful as other things, but if you want a full picture of the player's value and/or skillset, why ignore them?... ...but there's no question that some batters get more and some get less. It's a skill and it's repeatable."

    Agreed Johnny T., ROE and HBP are also similar to GIDP, in that it's usually not going to change a player's offensive value much, but if a player is unusually good or bad at it (say Brett Butler vs. Ernie Lombardi, about 20 GIDP per full year), it will make a significant difference in player evaluation.

  29. John Autin Says:

    There are some assumptions flying around that are not necessarily borne out by data.

    -- Busting it on every ground ball leads to lots of ROE? Tell it to Charlie Hustle, credited with minus-35 WAR Runs ROE for his career.

    -- Speedy lefties get more ROE than lumbering righties? That's news to Harmon Killebrew, credited with 23 WAR Runs ROE for his career.

    I just don't think there are enough total instances of ROE, nor comprehensible trends in terms of the characteristics of the batters who get very many or very few ROE, to be sure that the ROE are not mostly random events.

  30. John Autin Says:

    Self-correction: The only comment above about batter handedness was when JT (correctly) noted that Jeter's being a righty gave him an edge in ROE.

  31. John Autin Says:

    (It was I who made the faulty assumption that LHBs would have an edge in ROE, being 2 steps closer to 1st base. In fact, RHBs dominate in ROE, presumably because they pull the ball, and a GB to the SS/3B is more likely to result in an error than one to the 2B/1B.)

  32. Johnny Twisto Says:

    There are 105 players who had at least 502 PA in both 2009 and 2010. I calculated their ROE-runs per PA for each season. The year-to-year correlation is 0.27. I'm assuming that's not nearly as strong as if we searched for something like HR/PA, but it's clearly positive.

    If I could search for actual ROE, I am guessing the correlation would look a little stronger. Converted to runs above average, the numbers are extremely compressed (around +4 to -4).

  33. Johnny Twisto Says:

    And John, I didn't originally put "hustle" as one of Jeter's main characteristics. I don't think it's as important as the other things. But I'm guessing he's gotten a handful of ROE over the years because he does bust it every time. Just as he's probably gotten a few infield hits for the same reason.

  34. kingturtle Says:

    this is actually the answer to a trivia question that occurred to me in 2007..."Who are the top three all-time leaders in Major League Baseball times on base?" I think the answer is fascinating. Rose, Bonds and Cobb...the three guys who got on base more than anyone are three guys who can be considered having the most nefarious relationship with the Major leagues.

  35. kingturtle Says:

    P.S. you didn't need to run a query for it. It is already listed here: http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/TOB_career.shtml . P.P.S. I'm surprised no one has mentioned Carl Yastrzemski being so high on the list. I am always confused by Yaz. 191 hits in a season at age 22, and then never a season again with as many. a triple crown and then a .301 batting title. Somewhat dominant hitter in the AL when pitching was so supreme it led to the DH. 5th all-time in times on base?!

  36. @34 - I would say Hal Chase might top Cobb, Rose, and Bonds in having the most nefarious relationship with the Major Leagues, though Cobb, Rose, and Bonds have had their share of trouble with MLB.

    @35 - that link does NOT include TOB w/ROE (even though it says it does). Raines had 3977 H+BB+HBP and 99 ROE according to his stats.

    @10 - I'm a huge Tim Raines fan - after Keith Hernandez he's my favorite player (on most days). If the Mets would have signed him in 1987 instead of trading for McReynolds he probably would be my favorite player. That being said, neither Raines nor Gwynn (who I also like) have 4000 TOB unless you include their ROE. And then Gwynn slightly passes Raines. Raines is 22 up without the ROE, but Gwynn has 40 more ROE, so Gwynn beats Raines a little. Though it's a lot closer than most people would realize - both go over 4000 TOB if you include their ROE, which is a lot of times to be on base.

    And since I was talking about Vizquel on the other post (him being the player I believe has faced the most different pitchers), he currently sits at 3999 TOB w/ROE. Granted, he's made an awful lot of outs (11th most in history so far), but still 4000 TOB.

  37. cap anson should be in the top 5 of this list

  38. JT-

    My rational for eliminating the H/E distinction goes beyond what has been discussed here (that ROE may be a "skill"). For me, an error is defined as reaching base safely when you otherwise would not have (obviously there are also errors where a guy advances a base where might otherwise have been held, but those are generally rarer and don't speak to what I'm trying to get at); basically, an error is an unearned hit. Fair enough. We shouldn't give a batter credit for an unearned hit. Sure, he got on base, but only because a fielder messed up.

    But what about all the times a guy would have otherwise had a hit save for an amazing defensive play? I'm not just talking about a good or great player, but a player that few if any other fielders would make. These guys get an out, plain and simple. They don't get an "unearned out"; they get an out.

    On the one hand, we consider the outcome and on the other, we consider the anticipated outcome. Doesn't jibe for me.

  39. Lawrence Azrin Says:

    @37/ Jason - see my comment on Anson in #10 - he'd probably be about #18 in TOB

    @36/ Artie Z. - thanks for straightening me out on Raines vs. Gwynn, I guess I remembered it somewhat wrong. The main point in the HOF discussion was that even though Gwynn had a lot more hits than Raines and Raines didn't come close to the magic 3000 figure, both of them reached base about the same number of times.

    @35/ kingturtle says: "... I'm surprised no one has mentioned Carl Yastrzemski being so high on the list. I am always confused by Yaz.

    short summary of Yaz' career, by a lifelong Red Sox follower:
    - very highly touted prospect, considered Ted Williams' successor in LF
    - fine line-drive hitter and fielder from 1961-1966, good BA and eye, but considered somewhat of a disappointment, (unfairly) blamed for mediocrity of Red Sox teams (always under .500 and never contending)
    -before the 1967 season, he had a very intense workout program with a noted exercise expert who worked at a country club (Gene ?), very unusual then in MLB
    - early in the 1967 season, coach Bobby Doerr took him aside and gave him some tips on how adjust his swing to hit more HR, leading to his "bat way over the shoulder" stance
    - this helped to lead to his 1967 Triple Crown/MVP year, in the midst of one of the closest pennant races ever, which was decided in the final game, with Yaz incredible down the last few games
    - from 1967-1970 he was one of the best hitters in MLB, but he hurt his shoulder early in 1971 and lost his power - he did not hit a HR for nearly a year's worth of games
    - he adjusted his swing, and was still good enough of a hitter (and kept in shape) that he played regularly till age 44. When he retired he was #1 in Games Played.

    He always had a very good eye and was willing to take a walk, plus he played forever (23 years of 100+ games). He was truly great from only 1963 to 1970, but was usually above-average as a hitter (and usually considerably more than average).

    Hope that helps...

  40. Rusty Staub for HOF

  41. Richard Chester Says:

    Luke Appling had 11 HBP in 2422 games. Ron Hunt was hit that many times over a 23 game span in 1971.

  42. 41 Appling was a coward!Take one for the team you bum!! LOL

  43. What's Jeter's ROE per ball in play? Is it especially high? And, who is especially high or low?

  44. "Yes, another characteristic of Jeter's. He *always* goes hard."

    As someone that watches most Yankees games... no he doesn't. He does hustle more than most, but like pretty much everyone, when he's going to be out by 10 feet at first base he doesn't run at top speed.

  45. I was impressed to see Frank Thomas on this list. Seeing that his base totals are nearly half of his at-bats..he had over 1,000 less at bats than almost everyone in front of him besides Ted Williams. I wonder what Frank would have done had ne not gotten hurt in 1999. No Steroids either.

  46. Johnny Twisto Says:

    What's Jeter's ROE per ball in play? Is it especially high? And, who is especially high or low?

    Jeter has ROE on 2.2% of his balls in play. This season, MLB average is 1.3%. Delgado for his career was 0.9%.

  47. Johnny Twisto Says:

    Statboy, I'll concede that Jeter does slow up a bit once he sees the out is pretty much a sure thing. But it looks to me like he always busts out of the box hard at first, even if it seems to be a routine grounder. Is he always going 100%? Probably not, but I can't remember ever wishing he had given more effort.

  48. Yankillaz Says:

    Nice to see Staub in there. So he`s the only steroid or gambling-free player that will never get elected to the Hall. Is interesting. Nevertheless, the fact that he is indeed in such honored group indicates that for his longevity, he is HOF material.

  49. Lawrence Azrin Says:

    248/ Yankillaz Says: "Nice to see Staub in there... ...Nevertheless, the fact that he is indeed in such honored group indicates that for his longevity, he is HOF material."

    Yankillaz, I'd argue that he is the "exception that proves the role"; even tho he's lumped in with a bunch of HOFers on the list above, he had more of a Harold Baines-type career (his 3rd most-similar comp). He wasn't much of a fielder, but he managed to stick around forever with a number of teams as a "professional hitter-for-hire", and built up impressive career offensive totals.

  50. isn't there a better way to attack this whole "got on base" thing? I mean, you're basically asking "how many times was the guy in the batting box and when the next guy came up, there were the same number of outs". Can't we use play by play data to calculate this more accurately? It seems a stat more about not getting an out than concerned with your performance with the stick (hits+walks+...)

  51. That could be just my quest for a more perfect triple crown that revolves around:

    1) How many times they don't make an out instead of batting average (basically what we're talking about here)
    2) How many times they hit with power instead of HR (I like total bases type thing)
    3) How many times they drive in runs instead of RBI (I like RE24)