Comments on: “Clutch” Since 1996 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/11400 This and that about baseball stats. Tue, 16 Jul 2013 17:01:55 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.6 By: rogerbusby http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/11400/comment-page-1#comment-119393 Thu, 09 Jun 2011 22:14:33 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=11400#comment-119393 If everything, for now, has been said on this subject (doubtful) can we talk about the revolving door this team TOT has running thru the clubhouse?

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By: Todd http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/11400/comment-page-1#comment-117833 Fri, 03 Jun 2011 19:08:33 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=11400#comment-117833 True enough, Twisto.

Derek goes back well on pop flys to the outfields and in the stands, and he can still do his famous jump, spin and throw maneuver. But he misses so many ground balls up the middle that it is maddening to watch.

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By: Johnny Twisto http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/11400/comment-page-1#comment-117708 Fri, 03 Jun 2011 04:33:51 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=11400#comment-117708 Derek couldn't field a ground ball with a shovel.

Oh, Jeter has no problem fielding grounders. Sometimes I just wish he'd get to a few more of them....

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By: Todd http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/11400/comment-page-1#comment-117668 Fri, 03 Jun 2011 02:24:00 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=11400#comment-117668 I think the problem with making sweeping generalizations such as "Papi is the most clutch player in Red Sox history," etc., etc., is that such a statement is inherently unprovable because no one can agree on the definition of clutch. As Twisto pointed out, in one commonly used measure of clutch hitting, Papi has actually been somewhat anti-clutch.

I also don't think the "I watch the game" argument is very strong. Managers and coaches watch the game, too, and they seem to keep voting for Derek Jeter as a Gold Glove SS, when in fact Derek couldn't field a ground ball with a shovel. Statistics are just summaries of what happens in the game, anyway. No one would vote for Darren Daulton as a better catcher than Johnny Bench just because Darren had a prettier swing. Johnny's performance on the field, as summarized by his statistics, indicates he was the better player.

In short, anyone who wants to make this argument can always find some kind of data to support his point, pro or con. I remember arguing with a Yankee fan who claimed ARod was anti-clutch. I pointed out some stats in which ARod did well, and the fan pointed out the others in which he didn't. Of course, to that fan those stats were the true measure of clutch. But when Jeter came up short in the same categories, then suddenly another definition of clutch was applied to him.

All that really matters is how many runs a player creates for his team. It doesn't matter much when he creates them, since players don't decide when to hit a HR or know in advance whether their hit will be the one that decides a game, except in comparatively rare instances, of course. And, even then, the rest of the game has to play out to allow them to get that chance. It did for Miguel Tejada in 2002 and he won an MVP because of it, which is ridiculous in retrospect.

As for Papi, I've decided he is bad in the clutch, because in his career he has hit much better when his team has the lead then when it is behind. (That is, when his team really needs him to hit well.) Also, he has hit far worse in the 9th inning than in any other inning. In fact, Papi is far worse in innings 7-9 than he is in innings 1-6.

And those are the standards I have decided to measure clutch hitting by.

So there.

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By: RedSoxUberAlles http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/11400/comment-page-1#comment-117651 Fri, 03 Jun 2011 00:03:45 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=11400#comment-117651 @78 / BSK wrote: "I challenge you to back up your assertion. Count up the "clutch hits" Papi has had and then use that same definition for other Red Sox players and find out if, indeed, he has the most."

Hey BSK, I respectfully decline to do math for you and the rest of your ilk. You go look up to numbers and crunch them on your science calculator. While you're doing that, I will actually watch the games at Fenway, root for the Sox and enjoy my life.

Look, I get it. This site is largely devoted to folks who want to objectively categorize, define and quantify baseball with statistics. That is cool. I am not one of those people. As I said, I think baseball is much more than just numbers. It is beautiful because the numbers are sometimes meaningless and cannot explain how, for example, the Sox found the will to come back after being down 3-0 in the 2004 ALCS against the Yankees to win their first WS in 86 years. That is precisely why baseball is beautiful, not because someone crunches up a bunch of stats and comes up with a category that tries to "objectively" (which is misleading, really, because one must subjectively select which stats to use in formulating the category) capture how "clutch" a player is or is not. That's one way to see the world, I guess. It's just not how I see it.....

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By: Jimbo http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/11400/comment-page-1#comment-117642 Thu, 02 Jun 2011 21:53:16 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=11400#comment-117642 I like people who just think "me and everyone else thinks this guy is the most clutch ever, therefor he is." Nevermind that his team has 100 year history....

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By: Johnny Twisto http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/11400/comment-page-1#comment-117640 Thu, 02 Jun 2011 21:49:41 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=11400#comment-117640 For comparison, I looked up all potential walk-off situations in MLB since 2003 (over 20,000). Batters hit .258 with a HR every 34.0 AB, so slightly worse than their overall numbers.

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By: Johnny Twisto http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/11400/comment-page-1#comment-117626 Thu, 02 Jun 2011 20:02:21 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=11400#comment-117626 How amazing is that Event Finder by the way? All praise Foreman Forman and B-R.

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By: Johnny Twisto http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/11400/comment-page-1#comment-117625 Thu, 02 Jun 2011 20:01:30 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=11400#comment-117625 I tried to search for every potential walk-off situation in Ortiz's Boston career (regular season only). This required several searches and I make no guarantees to accuracy. Nevertheless, as best I can figure, in those spots he has gone 19 for 44 (.432) with 9 HR and 26 RBI. A rather impressive record.

In A-Rod's Yankee career, in the same situations, he is 15 for 49 (.306) with 6 HR and 17 RBI. Pales in comparison to Ortiz, but still quite good and probably much better than most Yankee fans (or haters) would think.

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By: Johnny Twisto http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/11400/comment-page-1#comment-117622 Thu, 02 Jun 2011 19:40:58 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=11400#comment-117622 (For the record, Ortiz has been very good in his Boston career in the 5th inning with a runner on 2nd. 20 hits in 58 AB (9 BB), driving in the run 19 times. Average LI of those PA was 1.04. When there was 0 or 1 out, he didn't hit any HR, but also struck out only once in 32 PA, and moved the runner up 11 of the 20 times he got out. Very small sample, but that looks like a guy who was adjusting his approach to the circumstances.)

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