Comments on: Duke Snider, Passes At 84 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/10136 This and that about baseball stats. Tue, 16 Jul 2013 17:01:55 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.6 By: John Q http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/10136/comment-page-1#comment-97326 Tue, 01 Mar 2011 00:37:48 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=10136#comment-97326 @Jim Dunne 27,

I didn't mean to imply that A. Jones, Beltran, Damon & M. Cameron would reach the Snider, Edmonds & Lofton zone, I just said it was going to be interesting to see how they finish their respective careers.

A few years ago it looked like A. Jones was going to be a solid HOF candidate and then his career just fell off a cliff.

Beltran was putting together a quiet HOF career by the all star break in 2009. He was 32 in the middle of one of his best seasons and then he got injured. It looked like he had a legitimate shot at 400 HR & 400 SB which only Barry Bonds has accomplished. I think that with his unbelievable sb% plus his Gold Gloves would have made him a solid HOF candidate.

Cameron has been a very underrated player and will probably end up finishing his career among those other 8 borderline CF I listed.

Damon probably will finish his career ranked somewhere at the top of those "8" borderline HOF candidates. But what really helps Damon is that he's only 429 hits away from 3000 and he's only about 200 runs scored short of 1775 which would rank him in the Top 20 for runs scored.

Damon doesn't even have to be "Don Sutton". He just turned 37 so if he averages 140 hits & 70 runs scored the next three years, he could reach those milestones before he's 40. If you want to give him 4 more seasons then he can average about 107 hits & 50 runs scored and hit those marks before his 41st birthday.

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By: Martin M Solomon http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/10136/comment-page-1#comment-97301 Mon, 28 Feb 2011 22:53:04 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=10136#comment-97301 MULTIPLE ALLSTARS FROM SAME CITY: As a New Yorker growing up in 1950s, albeit a Yankees fan, I recognized there was something extraordinary about having 3 outstanding center fielders in the same city.

1. While Dodgers and Giants were in NYC, Snider was AS 1950-56. Mays was AS 1954-57. Mantle was AS 1952-57. So in 1954-56 there were 3 AS at same position CF from teams in same city. Had it happened before?

2. Yes! At shortstop. Reese AS 1946-54, Dark AS 1951-52, Rizzuto AS 1950-53. So 1951 and 52 had 3 AS from NYC @SS.

3. Near miss in RF with Furillo 1952-53, Mueller 1954-55 and Bauer 1952-54. (Each year 52-54 2 made AS, but always a different pair.)

4. At first base, had 3 AS in 1950s but never more than 2/year. Hodges 1949-55 and 57, Lockman 1952, Skowron 1957-61. So 2 in 1952 and 2 in 1957.

5. This is not a complete list. Please add if desired.

LINKS: Three links to NY Times on Duke Snider:

1. Obituary:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/28/sports/baseball/28snider.html?ref=sports

2. Column

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/28/sports/baseball/28anderson.html

3. Blog with three links:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/01/sports/baseball/01leading.html?ref=sports

A sad note. Until I read NYT obit, I was not aware of 1995 conviction of Duke Snider and Willie McCovey for failure to declare income from memorabilia shows. Each paid fine and got probation.

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By: Lawrence Azrin http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/10136/comment-page-1#comment-97284 Mon, 28 Feb 2011 21:17:51 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=10136#comment-97284 #25/... John Q Says: "Lawrence A, Good analysis on Center Fielders and the HOF..."

Thanks John, what is interesting is all the CFers better than Snider the BBWAA elected (with the notable exception of Puckett) are all-time greats. It's as if you have to be a "no-brainer" to be elected by the writers as a centerfielder. For example, Dale Murphy is probably as good or better than at least half of CFers selected by the Veteran's, but peaked @23.2% in his 2nd year on the ballot. Snider is Murphy's 3rd "most similar" batter, BTW, Edmonds 5th.

Jimmy WYNN - his stats got KILLED by:
-playing much of his prime in the Astrodome
- the second "deadball era"
- having a lot of his value in high BB totals

He's probably the best player to get _0_ HOF votes (along w/Cecil Cooper, Mike Cuellar ). He's a decent HOF candidate, but I'd put Jim Edmonds, Dale Murphy, and maybe Vida Pinson ahead of him. Why? - as #27/jim said, you can't judge strictly by career value and ignore the peak performance.

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By: Jim Dunne http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/10136/comment-page-1#comment-97281 Mon, 28 Feb 2011 20:50:28 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=10136#comment-97281 @#25

I think by including Damon and Cameron you may be putting all of your emphasis on career value, and not looking enough at peak value. Snider had 6 seasons of 5.0+ WAR, Lofton had 6 and Edmonds had 7. Damon only has 1 such season, and while Cameron has 3, most of that is in defensive value, which the Hall has never emphasized for outfielders as Lawrence pointed out. Honestly, now that both are in their late 30's I don't see them sticking around to get their career WAR into the high 60's where the others reside. Damon would have to basically be a pitching version of Don Sutton and play long enough to get 3000 hits. Cameron won't make it to year two on the ballot, and considering that right now he's tied with Fred Lynn for career WAR, that's pretty reasonable.

Beltran has 5 such seasons, and Andruw Jones has 7, but both may fall victim to the bias against players who peaked early rather than late. Beltran may have a comeback in him, which could make him a borderline argument, but by the time Andruw Jones gets on the ballot, he'll be somwhere around 12-15 years removed from his last good season, depending on how long he sticks around. Add in the facts that much of Jones' value was in defense, and the controversies that he would find himself involved in (Gold Club, late career weight gain), I don't see him making it.

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By: Mets Maven http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/10136/comment-page-1#comment-97269 Mon, 28 Feb 2011 19:49:34 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=10136#comment-97269 Mets fans will mourn the Duke as a former Met as well as a Brooklyn Dodgers great. In fact, we lost another old-time Mets this weekend--Greg Goossen.

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By: John Q http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/10136/comment-page-1#comment-97264 Mon, 28 Feb 2011 19:43:01 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=10136#comment-97264 Lawrence A,

Good analysis on Center Fielders and the HOF.

Essentially Snider is the dividing line between admission by the BBWAA or the Veteran's committee. It's going to be interesting what happens with Edmonds & Lofton who were basically on the same level as Snider. Edmonds & Lofton really should be in the HOF but they probably won't get much support.

The Veteran's committee hasn't elected a CF in long time. I think Ritchie Ashburn was the last one around 1995.

Jimmy Wynn is the only clear omission that I can think of as far as Center Fielders go in the HOF. Then There's about 6-7 borderline CF, W. Davis, Cedeno, Pinson, Lemon, Lynn, Burks, Murphy & B. Williams.

It's going to be interesting to see how active players like A. Jones, Beltran, Damon & M. Cameron finish their careers.

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By: Gary W http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/10136/comment-page-1#comment-97211 Mon, 28 Feb 2011 16:21:37 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=10136#comment-97211 Duke Snider was my first baseball hero. I saw him play at the Coliseum and at Dodger Stadium. He hit the first big-league home run that I ever saw. RIP Duke.

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By: Soundbounder http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/10136/comment-page-1#comment-97209 Mon, 28 Feb 2011 16:11:31 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=10136#comment-97209 Some great tributes to Snider today in the Los Angeles and New York Times.

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By: Lawrence Azrin http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/10136/comment-page-1#comment-97206 Mon, 28 Feb 2011 16:02:22 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=10136#comment-97206 What's interesting about Duke Snider and the HOF is that Snider is pretty much the dividing line for center fielders being elected by the BBWAA to the HOF. If you're better than him (Cobb, Speaker, Dimaggio, Mantle, Mays), you're elected; if you are worse than him, you have to be selected by the Veteran's Committee to get in the HOF (Ashburn, Averill, Carey, etc...).

The only exception to this is Kirby Puckett. Puckett clearly belongs in the level below Snider, but it looks like some writers credited Puckett with the decline phase his sudden retirement wiped out. Even with Snider's early thirties decline, due to injuries and his home park in LA hurting him, he ranks in the Top-100 in career WAR (67.5) for all players. Puckett is #325 (44.8), surrounded by HOF-center field Veteran's picks such as Earl Combs, Earl Averill, Larry Doby, and Edd Roush.

Billy Hamilton is the only other CFer as good as Snider not elected by the BBWAA, but hardly any 19th century guys got elected by the writers.

As many people here have commented on in the past, the writers have a higher standard for CFers, expecting them to be just as good offensively as corner outfielders, but giving them little or no credit for increased defensive value.

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By: Tmckelv http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/10136/comment-page-1#comment-97191 Mon, 28 Feb 2011 14:06:45 +0000 http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/?p=10136#comment-97191 Duke Snider was my Dad's favorite player. RIP.

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